Originally Posted by jamesdevice
Nice idea Sam, but just how many Phantoms, Vixens, Buccs and Gannets are there lying around in museums that could be regenerated, even assuming the parts are available? And what use wold they be anyway?
I guess you could try with the Sea Harriers - but how many are there still in military hands and not smashed up? Ten? And even then you'd have to do it with minimal or no support from BAE
I am not Sam - and certainly not SAMXXV!
No point in trying to put old conventional carrier aircraft on a ship without catapults and arresting gear - so these are not relevant to this decade. BAE Systems etc will support whatever they get paid to. As for the number of intact Sea Harriers, try looking at
Target Lock or
Demobbed Aircraft. Parts are still exported to India, both by BAE Systems and under licence.
Regenerating the Sea Harrier did get mentioned on the Sea Jet thread (particularly
from page 100 onwards), although this was pre SDSR and assumed that both RN and RAF would continue Harrier flying. I think it is interesting that Art Nalls has proved that an AV8B simulator can be used to simulate Sea Harrier. If the RNR Harrier proposal mentioned some pages back failed on cost grounds (fixed support costs etc) then what about a capability at reduced readiness with regenerated Sea Harriers? Obviously it would be hard to regenerate the AMRAAM capability, but the radar (again unlikely to be as good as when properly in service as some work be needed to produce a working system - but better than the GR9's radar), Sidewinders etc would allow a fleet defence role, visual identification of unknown aircraft etc.
Since NFSF(FW) still fly Hawks (privately maintained), and (at least until recently) they were/are RNR as well as RN Pilots flying them, just a PAIR of regenerated Sea Jets could maintain some core expertise needed for a larger regeneration in a crisis - as well as allowing jets to still embark aboard
Lusty/
QE.
If Art Nalls can do it, why can't we? Whole force concept, retaining capabilities, maintaining corporate experience....why can we not piggy back a limited (Reserve led) capability onto NFSF(FW)?
I also note the comments
here.
This idea would need some serious outside of the box thinking - including intelligent use of Reserve personnel and contractors, using contractors to assist with some aspects of operations, and using companies to produce spares on a build to print basis. But it would provide that "just in case" capability. It would also allow reducing the risk in moving to F35C operations at the end of the decade.
To my mind this would represent better value for money than £80 million for the opening ceremony for the Olympics. Probably cheaper too - and would not involve taking thousands and service personnel (including mobilised Reservists) and Police Officers from their normal duties.
Originally Posted by glojo
Do we try begging India to loan or sell us their worn out SHAR harrier fleet? Should we offer to buy those aircraft at say £10m each having just sold our own low mileage one owner fleet of aircraft for just £1.6m each?
No, they tried to buy some of ours back in 2009 and HMG said no. At least the Indians must have thought that they would still be airworthy.
Originally Posted by glojo
Difficult to quantify, we had the harriers, all paid for and sitting in a hangar, we still have the ship, manpower etc. The ship is sailing the high seas doing absolutely NOTHING but still incurring costs to we the tax payer so does it incur extra cost by being off the cost of Libya as opposed to off the coast of Torquay?!!
Not quite nothing,
Lusty has been doing amphibious work ups for the LPH role. But some of your comments could apply to other things (people and machines) mentioned in the above paragraphs.
To be honest, my question was not fishing for SHAR related suggestions, or ideas of leasing AV8Bs, or anything like that. It was a reflection on the view stated by the Government that the issue of crises this decade does not exist, despite the fact we can see the inexorable slide towards conflict with Iran, continued terrorism related activity in Yemen, and renewed Argentine belligerence in the South Atlantic...
They won't even say that the shipboard deployment of Apache will help fill the gap. To the closed mind of the politician, the issue simply does not exist. I suspect that relying on our Europeans allies is now less of an option. Declining SSN numbers mean that relying on TLAM too much may also be unwise.
When the fleet carriers got the axe in the 60s, Exocet missiles were fitted to destroyers and frigates to make up for the loss of the anti ship abilities of the Buccaneer.
Meanwhile,
Navy News reports
a reception at No10 for personnel involved in Libya operations:
“I can’t tell you what a thrill it is having sat, day after day – 68 meetings – in some bunker and we were talking about ‘will the minesweeper get through to Misrata?’ Well, I’ve now met the people that were sailing on it.
Will the Prime Minister have similar concerns if faced by a more difficult opponent? One with aircraft and not subject to a no fly zone, perhaps? Or where there is no friendly nation offering their airfields for us to use?