Originally Posted by
HarryMann
I don't think you should polarise this so much
Harry, I'm not polarising anything - in fact I'm being neutral to a fault. You and others are saying that feedback and/or yokes would definitely have changed the situation, but I'm saying that isn't necessarily the case. I'm not saying it definitely isn't, or that feedback is purely a throwback. I'm saying there's not enough evidence to say that feedback would have made a difference.
Few, if any, are denying that PF was way below par from manual takeover to end of story... with general crew shortcomings becoming apparent.
I'm not even saying that! Everyone has bad days at the office, it's just that a bad day at the office for an airline pilot has an almost unique potential to become a bad day for everyone on their aircraft.
To say that lack of feedback may not have been an issue is not blaming the pilots, and to say that one necessarily implies the other is a strawman argument that is beneath a lot of the more reasonable people on here.
But really, you have to stop this black and white routine
Harry, can't you see that I'm the one trying to keep the shades of grey here by saying that the sidestick/passive feedback combo may not have (not didn't - *may not* have) played a causative role here.
All those 3 things did play some part (notwithstanding similar accidents in the past happening without them - that is a false negative), I believe.
That is your opinion, shared with some others - and as an opinion it is valid. My opinion (that it's a possibility, but equally that it could be a red herring), is also shared by some others and IMO equally valid. I'm not trying to argue here, I'm just trying to make sure that the parameters of debate remain open.
To start slamming a control column about like that (just think of the equivalent), would definitely have woken up the Captain upon entry, even if PNF had still stayed subdued (this accident will no doubt turn into a study case for at least pilot shock & stress behaviour as much as CRM itself).
There is almost no argument that Captain would not have responded to visually seeing a full aft stick in PFs hands - end of.
No doubt he would then have looked straight at the Trimwheel, and PFD
I disagree. See the posts on the Stony Point NWA 727 crash in the other thread. A three man crew *did* misdiagnose a stall as overspeed, *did* move the control column to its full extent, *did* stall the plane and *did* crash and die.
*You* may have picked it up in that situation, but there were and are trained pilots who aren't as good or as knowledgeable as you.