First, let me say you have no plan of actual piloting an aircraft. I know, you never said you would have, but you make statements which only flying expierienced pilots can make. Aquadalte has this expierience and flies this type of aircraft if iīm correct, but you donīt listen.
Originally Posted by aguadalte
You just brought the answer to your own question. Try to type in a stress environment at the same speed in an AZERTY keyboard than the one you can do on a QWERTY keyboard and see the difference for yourself...
DozyWannabe
I have, many times, and I know what you're talking about. However, muscle memory is not just about making a movement relative to what is felt, it's about practicing to the point where you instinctively know where to put it in the first place.
Get realistic. Practicing to that point youīdscribe is not going to happen anymore in aviation. That was done 20 years ago and with tactile feedback, now it is without that and especially on long range legs less than 2% of logged flight time. And sim-time will not help either.
Quote aquadalte:
You would have to use your eys and concentration on what you are really typing in order not to commit mistakes.
DozyWannabe
At first, the same way you have to look at the guitar fretboard and/or feel the fret position underneath your fingers to do so at first. But later, as you master it, the muscle memory makes the feedback redundant. You don't need to look or feel where to put your fingers, you just do.
Tell that a neurogist doctor. You are saying, a man with numb fingers can play guitar fretboard like an expert? Since an accident last year i have only limited feeling in my left thumb and first finger. Since then i smashed a plate in average per week by emptying the dishwasher (are not allowes to do it any more). But on the other hand, neither a guitar fretboard nor emtying a dishwasher comen anywhere near the task of flying an aircraft in a situation like AF447 was in.
Quote aquadalte:
The same for the pilot, that doesn't have the feed-back on the stick. He his deprived from his tactile feed-back and has to look at the PFD to see the results of his commands, therefore loosing a precious useful tool...
DozyWannabe
Look, I'm not saying (and have never said) tactile feedback is not useful in its place. Trainers should always have as much feedback as possible, because the pilot is learning where to put his hands.
What kind of statement is that? You are talking about blind school now? Yes i remember, we did a blindfold cockpit checkout, had to operate any switch with blindfolded eyes. Try that with the new systems and pushbuttons...
DozyWannabe
Once training for an Airbus FBW type rating, those muscle moves will be practiced in the simulator at first, and then on the aircraft.
And you know that from wwhom and from what source?
I havenīt done typerating in an airbus simulator, but in the caravelle 20 years ago. But even there it was "procedures and emergencies, using automation as much as possible. You think it is different and there would be time to practice stick handling to the point you imply? Or that would happen in the future?
DozyWannabe
However, once type-rated and in the aircraft with us SLF down the back, pilots should not have to rely on such "training wheels" to control the aircraft.
I would prefer an aircraft with everything available (including tactile feedback) and a crew who can make best use of this aircraft.
DozyWannabe
Again - I *know* what the theoretical argument is for force-feedback and I acknowledge that.
No, you do not. See your next sentence
DozyWannabe
However I still have not seen evidence of a single accident in a FBW Airbus where force-feedback would have helped.
Maybe, that is because in a lot of accidents you canīt talk to the pilots any more. And because in others it is not en vogue to talk about it. And because in a lot of incidents, where tactile feedback was missed there was nobody listening to the crew or a statement from one pilot would have consequences to the other pilot? There are a lot of reasons, even the simplest one, that nobody had an interest to make any statistic evaluation of such a factor.
DozyWannabe
In the case of AF447, the PNF *knew* the PF was overcontrolling and he told him not to. Eventually he tried to take over. How would feedback have helped?
He would have noticed it from the beginning, and he would have seen no improvement after his telling. And he would have taken over like i did as instructor in the backseat of my F4. Take both hands, grip the stick and put it where it is needed. And if necessary take two knees to assist. I could not use JD-EEīs 2-day-old-pizza-tool to get attention, the guy was sitting in front with the instrument panel and gun powder chair in between us. In an A or B cockpit it sure would be an option to get the attention by that or similar attention getters instead silly games like who can push the takeover button first and can press it longer.
Some things that do not seem to be common knowledge about the sidestick arrangement:
Only one pilot is supposed to manipulate the flight controls at any one time by design (most people know that)
Pressing the priority button transfers control from one stick to the other (most people know that)
*Holding down* the priority button prevents the other side from making inputs, or taking priority back
Holding down the priority button *for more than 40 seconds* deactivates the opposite sidestick completely
That should be known by now, and it did not help the PNF at all. Iīm not saying that tactile feedback would have helped, therefore we know too little about how much the PNF really was in the loop of the happenings. But if he was, tactile feedback would have helped him and not hindered him.
DozyWannabe
The PF in the RHS was not a complete rookie, he was a 32-year-old ATPL with an A330 type rating.
You are correct, then start thinking what contributed to the fact, that he now looks like a rookie.
I like your technical insight on software and engineering and i apreciate your contributions there. But you are also talking about stuff, which is IMHO totally out of your sandbox. I kept back with this statement for some time and tried to make it clear by other means, but in vain. It is not my task to tell you and if the mods judge this as a personal attack i assure, it is not intended to. But if they like to delete this post, so be it.