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Old 20th Jul 2011, 23:37
  #556 (permalink)  
PJ2
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: BC
Age: 76
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Hi airtren;
Perhaps I am posting under a misunderstanding on my part: the PF & PNF had no radio communications from the time when the event started, all the way to FL 0.

They deviated to the left at FL 350, and climbed from FL350 to FL375 and then FL380 without any radio communications and thus ATC permission/approval - if I understand correctly.
I'm just going by your post #519 where you say:

"Sometime between 1:59:32 and 2:01:46, the PF said, “…turbulence that you just saw…. We’re in the cloud layer unfortunately we can’t climb much… because the temperature is falling more slowly than forecast… and the logon with Dakar failed”.

The text marked in blue can be considered as implying that going to a higher flight level, above FL350, was considered as a possible solution, had the air temperature and the Dakar logon been OK.

At 2:08:07 PNF said “you can maybe go… to the left” airplane …. change ….about 12 degrees possibly because the increasing turbulence …. The level of turbulence increased … the crew reduce the speed to about Mach 0.8.

At the moment the A/P and A/THR disconnected, at 2:10:05, the A/C needed a correction command, and I think it is also possible that the PF thought, that it is worth trying to go at a higher flight level - we don't know if the air temperature may have decreased? "
Perhaps we're talking past one another!

For the record, it is stated in the BEA Update that the pitch-up was the result of an aft movement of a sidestick.

To your point, all I'm saying is, you can't just "decide" to climb, or descend to a new altitude or deviate off course for weather or anything else, without an ATC clearance unless there is an emergency.

They didn't get a clearance to climb but just pitched the aircraft upwards.

Therefore we have to conclude that the PFs intention, unchallenged by the PNF, was not to just climb to a higher altitude and level off.

Therefore his reasons for the pitch up lie elsewhere and that is what we need to find out.

And to drive a point home which I have been stating for some time now, when one loses the airspeed indications, one does NOT change pitch or power. As soon as one does that, one loses the pitch and power settings in which the aircraft was stable immediately prior to the loss of airspeed indications and very quickly loses situational awareness.

Without careful attention to attitude and power, loss of control can quickly result. A pitch-up of 15degrees in a transport aircraft operating at FL350, if held and not reduced, is, for all intents and purposes, a loss of control.

Whether the PNF knew about and understood what the PF was doing is not known and not discussed in the BEA Update. We will know, I hope, in the upcoming Report.

Does this help?
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