hi Lonewolf. Give me a steer, here. My take on the accident involves mostly the idea that the initial event happened rather quickly, and was unrecoverable almost as fast.
"Quickly" is a relative term. Depending upon how responsive your aircraft is, quick time horizon will very.
At some point in a three thousand foot climb, which took about half of a minute, remedy to the pitch problem seems to have not worked, whatever was tried.
For me, thirty seconds is a long time if what I am dealing with is simple attitude flying, but as I have stated time and again, I am at a loss concerning
what the PF was seeing (and for that matter, what he wasn't seeing) from the event's onset to its conclusion.
Aren't 'Upset' and "Loss of Control" two separate regimes? My understanding is that Upset need define one set of criteria, and LOC another.
I would use "upset" to describe those unusual attitudes and conditions that precede stall, or other out of control flight, and classify only stall and beyond states as "loss of control."
Caveat: if you have a control channel that doesn't work, you may be, by default, in a loss of control state. If you have spoilers or slats going wild (there was a bold face for that in the A-4 NATOPS that I can vaguely recall) you may be in OCF until you get the asymmetry fixed.
Upset I think, includes control excursions that are quite recoverable, similar and quite consistent with loss of a/p. Not boring, but not life threatening either. A Loss of Control exists when command of the a/c is lost?
You can call a trim runaway a loss of control, unless you are able to overcome it and regain control. Had that happen in a helicopter once, it was an adrenalin rush, but it was recoverable.
Bear, I am not sure I'd phrase the distinction as you did.
Over the past two years, a number of pilots who have flown big transports into stalls (usually on purpose with that one degree per second entry method) have told us how the stall recovery went. What seems to be true, (other than the deep stall problem of the T tail aircraft) is that recovery is often viable when partial control over some or all flight surfaces is exercised in a particular way, likewise power adjustments, to affect a change in airflow and restore lift, and thence control.
(Aside: If you want an interesting loss of control story, take a read on the Vortex Ring State flight test done by two test pilots for the V-22 Osprey as they investigated one of the V-22 mishaps that involved VRS).
So, for whatever reason, what caused 3ADR reject and ALTERNATE LAW2 satisfies 'Upset'? The zoom climb, at least for now, defines LOC?
I don't see it that way. I don't think zoom climb is LOC, it looks to me more of an upset. Once stalled, you could argue LOC. I'll let those who are more current in state of the art terms correct me on that, as necessary.
Early in #4 thread, I think, the criteria for Jet upset (regardless of airframe type) were posted here. Not so for LOC, but LOC is pretty simply "Loss of Command" (mechanical or Pilot induced?)
A stall due to windshear is neither mechincally induced, nor pilot induced, so maybe a third category is needed. Or a fourth.
