PPRuNe Forums - View Single Post - AF447 Thread No. 3
View Single Post
Old 1st Jun 2011, 22:33
  #1059 (permalink)  
gums
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: florida
Age: 81
Posts: 1,610
Received 55 Likes on 16 Posts
Stall dynamics/stall displays

@ PJ

To your question, I'm not an aeronautical engineer so cannot explain the two questions you're asking: 1) What are the actual dynamics of the stall in a large transport aircraft?, and 2) How, in practical terms, might "the stall" be displayed to the pilots in such a way as to provide unequivocal guidance, in very bad circumstances, (weather, system failures, etc) for manual pilot recovery.
- can't answer first question, so we need to have somebody who has gotten close to the edge or even exceeded it to tell us. I can't believe the 'bus aero is so great that some type of airframe vibration or buffet or slight wing rock cannot be present. Just my opinion.

From my experience with the full-time, automatic leading edge flaps in our little jet, stall was extremely benign. Traditional buffet/wing rock/etc. was greatly reduced, as the flaps were designed to help with. Also had better directional stability. Further, as with the 'bus, we were theoretically "protected" by our AoA limiter. So you never got to see an actual stall except the dreaded "deep stall", heh heh.

- Second question might be easier to answer, and 'bird's answer and that of the others should be interesting.

Display the AoA with respect to "stall" AoA in a straightforward manner. The display I see for the 'bus is confusing, and seems to show several points of interest. It also is embedded ion the speed display. The jet I flew with the most critical AoA was the VooDoo, and it had a big old AoA gauge with a needle indicating existing AoA and a brightly-colored needle showing where eagles dare to tread! That plane did not "stall", it pitched up and tumbled about all three axis. I can't believe the 'bus is so sensitive to AoA or a high speed mach buffet/control reversal/flutter that we need be concerned about a sudden and debilitating loss of control. And the AF447 data thus far seems to indicate that the plane can get into trouble in an insidious fashion that can be dealt with, but requires training and a good cross check.

But most importantly, the plane needs a flight control system logic that does not disregard AoA once the wheels are in the well. To disregard AoA if the speed sensors are FUBAR cracks me up. The doggone things were out to lunch to begin with, and may have only recovered some degree of usefulness at a much lower altitude. AoA fault recognition is not a difficult task for the computers, as AoA changes slightly with every pitch/gee change that the 'bus does every second or even millisecond, even in "Alt" laws. Hell, it's the AoA changes that the wings use to create those pitch/gee changes. GASP!

Secondly, a good HUD can show AoA even if the vanes/cones are frozen. The difference between pitch and actual flight path vector is AoA!!! ( wing chord incidence allowed for, naturally).

So while I am on my roll, a good HUD should be in every commercial airliner, even the small regional things. And I hope many saw the shuttle landing video last night, as it was the main TV video due to the night landing.

A good HUD need not be complicated, with many pieces of data presented. And it's easy to have "de-clutter" capabilities. It can provide no kidding velocity vector and attitude info as a matter of course. Speed, AoA, heading and such can be easily displayed as we saw last night with the shuttle display. Steering cues are a piece of cake. and the beat goes on...

Sorry for the rant, but I am upset with all the talk of who was in what seat, more weather data and press releases and such. The crash was the result of a sequence of events and human actions and aircraft characteristics, both aerodynamic and mechanical/computer-dictated, that resulted in a tragedy all here wish to prevent in the future.

and I'll edit later after I crawl off the wall ( remember, a fighter pilot is not drunk as long as he can hold on to a single blade of grass to keep from falling off the surface of the Earth!)
gums is offline