5th C-17 for RAAF

[Lonewolf_50]

Originally Posted by Bushranger71

Blackhawk and MRH90 are not light and agile being roughly twice as heavy as the Huey II, between 10 and 20 times more expensive to purchase (depending on cost sources referenced) and at least 4 times more costly to operate. And, the Huey II is superior in hot and high performance.

Bushranger71, I do not find your assertions valid in this passage from a few pages back.

1. For Huey II (which I think you mean to be the UH-1Y?) to be 10-20 times cheaper than Blackhawk, they would have to cost 1-2 million, which we know is not the case. It's run by two T-700's, which is about where your first one to two million would get soaked up. L's used to cost betweel 7-10 million back in the 90's, I think the M's are coming in under 20, but with the size of a US Army order and a multi year contract, odds are that pricing on that bird will vary, as you mentioned. I don't see anyone flying a UH-1Y away for less than 6-10 million, do you?

2. I have flown both Blackhawk (L model) and Huey (E and L model, single engine) and do not concur with your point on agility. (However, if your "agility" point is on the deployability of the Blackhawk or H90, rather than its handling stick and rudder wise, I think I see what you mean.) For those down playing the UH-1Y in this thread, the USMC appear to be pretty happy with the new 4-blade tail, 4 blade head, and its improved high hot and heavy performance. Afghanistan is a tough place to run a fully loaded helicopter in the summer time, that's for sure.

3. Your numbers on "cost to operate" are based on some data, I presume? I do not get how you derive "four times as high" from BH to others. I am also not sure which Huey you are basing your cost point on. Maybe your data are due to Australia having small fleets of any given aircraft, and some costs not spreading as well as others. Not sure. Cost per flight hour on Blackhawk and Seahawk, for example, were somewhat different a couple of decades ago, in part due to their different operational environment. But I don't have figures to hand that I consider reliable for current ops, so I'll not comment further.

4. Comment to anyone on "automatic blade fold" and Maritime helicopters.

It's a load of crap.

I operated SH-2F with manual blade fold, and SH-60B with auto, and I do not buy this tripe about how your "operations" are limited by manual bladefold. In my experience, I found manual to be much more reliable, faster (with a trained crew) and utterly lacking the profound operational limitations that arose time and again when the blasted blade fold failed to work as advertised in actual conditions. (Slip rings and corrosion were one of many problems.)

However, the Rube Goldbergs of the aviation world won that round ... auto blade fold appears to be here to stay. I suppose that some of the annoying features that plagued me may have been overcome in the intervening years. I hope so, anyway.

C-17: great capability, but I think the analysis of how to balance scarce money on airlift is extremely dependent on ROC and POE. (Required Operational Capability and Predicted Operating Environment). We discussed this some months back, BR71, and I note that your current deployment model is a company sized fight ... in what time frame and with what follow on forces in what timeframe???

How one phases the operation is crucial to how one builds the transport scheme to support an op.

The more I think through your point, the more I appreciate your concern on Hercs being given short shrift, given the expected tactical scenarios you envision the Aussies engaging in for the near to mid term.

That said, the C-17 is a fine bird, and more to the point, a bird that gives the POLITICAL leadership a larger number of options and flexibility than hercs ... the Japan event being a fine case in point.

But, if the armed forces are to provide security for some serious Aussie homeland and local area fighting and defense as a primary role, then perhaps the C-17 is a luxury, and a boosting of the Hercs a necessity.

This thread has been most educational. Thanks to all.