And about how pilots (for instance me) sense stall:
At the bottom I have listed two references. The FAR reference shows something about the discussion which might be of interest. In fact the statement is that there has to be a warning whatsoever to indicate a possible high AoA situation before C/L MAX. It also states that a stall warning shall be given 7 percent over the determined stall speed.
The whole certification never goes over the absolute limit. No one wants to crash a multimillion testbed. Interesting to learn from the certification documentation that the aircraft hast to be controllable by use of the normal devices up to certificated stall.
IMHO this means we're safe to recover as long as we react with the first warning and do not take it over to fully stalled wing.
It also states IMO the two possibilities to fulfill the requirements for stall testing whereas when fitted with a stall identification system there is no need to take the plane over C/L MAX.
The aircraft I flew and actually fly did and do not show aerodynamic buffet at high AoA. Both were fitted with STICK SHAKER and STICK PUSHER for that particular reason. Previous type gave no aerodynamic indication. Actual type does have an aerodynamic buffet inducer on leading edge - still for some reason it has been fitted with both warning devices as well and FCOM does not rely on buffet.
To the discussion about the speeds: When flying IMHO I give a sh... if the warning is IAS/CAS/EAS/M dependent, corrected or not. If one of the clues triggers be it aerodynamic or artificial there is normally no time to wonder if it may have another margin of 4 kts indicated to reach C/L MAX or not because we are at 30'000 feet. The manufacturer had to show that these devices would alert before it got out of hands. Anyways I may be in a speed range where my hairs at the back of my neck stand already up or should.
INDICATION
The only way as indication of impending approach to stall on current type I have is the red and black band coming up from the bottom of my PFD to "indicate" AoA C/L MAX. FCOM states that this is slightly before reaching aerodynamic C/L MAX.
PERCEPTION
To perception comes attitude vs. power vs. change in altitude = experience. If on A/P no direct clues are given. Need to assemble information from 3 different locations PFD/ENG DISPLAY/TRIM BAND. Additional clues could be airspeed noise as it get's silent or missing engine noise.
Handflown it may become mushy and soft.
AS FOR THE SPEED DISCUSSION
The only thing I have on the front end is airspeed - indicated airspeed IMO. I say indicated airspeed because this is what I have. An indication on my PFD of actual measured and corrected for whatever the ADC does speed of the air mass I'm in. And I have a booklet based on mass which tells me what speed is still save (1.3 Vs) and I don't know if it is Stall1g or the older certification and to be honest - I don't care because I have no influence on that whatsoever. Still AoA and the margin above C/L MAX when STICK SHAKER or STICK PUSHER triggers may account for any deviation with altitude M, R number etc. (at least I hope the manufacturer did so)
The aerodynamic buffeting from the leading edge vortex generator may as well be already covered by the STICK SHAKER or STICK PUSHER.
RECOVERY
It looks as I've been one of the lucky guys to train o.k. from the beginning. Lower the nose apply power as far as practicable control roll with ailerons was what we were taught from the beginning. From own experience in stalling a Piper Warrior to recovery from spins I have learned: Piper stalled nicely power off. Was fluttering down like a leaf in one after another secondary stalls and only application of rudder put it wings over. Ailerons were still working fine.
I wanted to go a bit further after CPL/IR training and used an EXTRA and VOTEC aerobatic plane on several occasions to train stall and spin recovery from fully stalled conditions. Obviously a treat in these A/C but the lesson learned was again - NO RUDDER on "impending stall". Any excessive rudder application had me upside down before I could think and made things much worse. Still the ailerons neutral nose down worked to NOT FULLY stall the A/C.
MY POINT
It makes quite a difference if recovering from an approach to stall or a fully developed stall with it's unknowns.
Funny that all manufacturers tell about the same story about stall recovery.
Funny that all aircraft I know disconnect A/P when stall warning is given.
Finally RTFM!
MY QUESTION ABOUT TRAINING
Maybe the trouble with use of rudder is that basic training started to mix up stall recovery with spin recovery at some point?
MY ADVICE
Know your pitch and power for the most important configurations. Know your trim.
MY CONCLUSION
The whole discussion is about stall recovery. But there is no such thing in training. It ends at impending stall except if you take aerobatics or manufacturer defined stall speed!
Simulators are NOT ABLE to represent a fully stalled condition.
Altitude helps - a lot.
It depends if you are approaching a stall and start recovery in time and you are still within the envelope that was tested and agreed upon as: "Shows a behavior which can be handled with normal piloting skills...". If your aircraft whatever type goes wing over and dives at 45 deg nose down you're on your own as a test pilot. I guess that in large transport aircraft the only thing that counts then is good luck and enough energy say altitude below. The day I may have some extra money to spend I'd like to go to the 3D SIM and train that.
To clarify I would put the recommendations into three different sections.
- Approach to stall where there IS margin and the first warnings kick in timely. Still the aircraft is flyable and ailerons efficient. You don't know what the margin is so better be quick. Loss of altitude included. You were on the lucky side.
- Stalled to the point where we are over the apex of C/L MAX. The relatively sudden drop in lift may cause a lot of trouble such as nose down or it wings over for whatever disturbance which made stalling asymmetrical. Here you are outside the envelope and it will get very interesting. Good luck!
- After the primary stall where you find yourself in whatever position possible depending on attitude, energy state, aircraft type and you're out of any tested envelope on the type such as a spin. Good luck!
Some information worth considering:
AERO : Upset Recovery
FAR AC 25-7A page 189 ff
And some information from NTSB reports on what happens in a full stall. Better be high up.
DCA08FA075
CHI06IA127
DCA97MA049
DCA97MA016
DCA03IA005
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
Still I think the training given in the original #1 post is sensible.
Keep the blue up and safe landings.