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Old 12th Jul 2010, 18:03
  #53 (permalink)  
italia458
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
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Most aircraft I've flown (which is mostly small ultralight stuff, and your average Cessna Single engine types). Only require a little of top rudder past the 45 degree mark, if you want to maintain it for a while. Depending on the day, load, and of course the speed. (note: please ensure you know what the implications of what to much top rudder will do!!)

Back to your quote; Yes the more angle of bank, the more the rudder is used to maintain a nose up position, what is generally known as top rudder.
Please do not teach anyone this method of turning! A steep turn is probably one of the hardest manoeuvres to complete accurately. In the method you described using "top rudder" you're not flying in a coordinated turn, you're in a slipping turn, which can easily lead to a stall and possibly a spin if bank is increased enough or speed reduced enough. This is probably the most common mistake a flight instructor sees when teaching steep turns. DO NOT USE RUDDER TO KEEP THE NOSE FROM DROPPING!! Make sure all turns are coordinated. The nicely compiled graph on increase in load factor, stall speed, etc. with an increase in bank is only accurate if you are in a coordinated level turn at that bank angle. If you look at your turn coordinator while in a steep turn using "top rudder", the ball will not be centred.

Another way; In relation to the aircraft, the elevator isn't doing anything to the yaw, rudder still controls yaw no matter what orientation the aircraft is in. Elevator still controls AoA no matter what orientation the aircraft is in.

I reckon you're on the money but it looks like you may be mixing it with a relation to the ground, (no offense intended) you may think, that, as it's now moving along the X axis using elevator instead of rudder (if the aircraft maintained wings level - using rudder only to turn without banking) it now controls yaw. Not the case relative to airflow.
Yes, in relation to the aircraft that's true. I was talking in relation to the horizon, where your reference for manoeuvres is based. It's the same as your attitude indicator. You should be flying using this reference system and if you are using "top rudder" to control pitch in your turns, I know you are! So that part is good.

AoA is a different factor and yes, elevator controls AoA, but rudder also controls AoA while in a turn. If you entered a cross controlled turn, like you described using "top rudder", then the inside wing would have a higher AoA compared to doing a properly coordinated steep turn.

I'd highly recommend that if you do your steep turns using "top rudder" then go up and practice doing them properly. It'll feel weird at first but you need to break that habit, it will bite you at sometime!!

I accept that it may be flippant to say so, but I am very glad that I did not read a thread such as this before learning to fly
Good call Basil!
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