Horatio, Tipsy2, Owen Stanley, Remoak. Like your inputs here (not that everyone else's isn't good). "As Commercial Pilots and ATPL holders we MUST start holding ourselves to a higher standard.",ditto. I guess that one comment sums it up. "Driven from both directions" (Howard) - agreed also; we need to consider that our well driven actions can have benefit for all. Owen Stanley, those comments are very appliceable too; Percieved pressure for OCTA and non-declaration of phases. I guess my reason for starting this thread was to prod us into considering what can lead to an end affect from such a seemingly small starting point. Definitely not a go at one organisation - all are up for being questioned.