And given the discouragement doled out by some managements to their crews over visual approaches, raw data flying, indeed anything other than A/P & AFDS opertions here in Europe, how long do you think before this standard of opertioning is the norm here? The current crop of newbies will be captains after 3000hrs in one blinkered outfit. They know nothing else and believe verbatum what they've had rammed onto their empty data bases. They then pass this on to the next generation of newbies. Their basic knowledge and handling skills will be rock bottom and spiraling ver downwards. There have been loads of commenst here about this trand. I don't wish to rehash that, but you commented that this was the world in AIE. Europe is not very far from it in the near future. There is a belief that costs will be reduced and safety improved if George does more. The more reliable it seems to be the more passive the pilot becomes. Perhaps piloting will improve if there are more failures and less back-ups. Keep you more awake that's for sure.