Ah memories, memories. You try telling the young of today about whitewashing coal heaps and do they believe you? Now that we have established this inter service rapport, bast0n, might we go further and agree that the only acceptable finding, given what is now known and perhaps more importantly what we do not know and never will, is one of "CNPD"? While we have no reason to suppose that the pilots did not conduct themselves with professionalism throughout this flight we now know that those charged with supplying them with an airworthy aircraft failed totally in that duty. The only reason that the cause of this accident cannot be ascribed to that total failure is that we do not know positively that it was. On the basis of probability it was IMHO a more probable cause and it would be inequitable to blame the pilots in any way while not blaming those who failed so shockingly in their duty. That is why "Pilot Error" is not acceptable to me. Perhaps you might, upon reconsideration, agree?