Well after that PP what can I do. Very annoying though, don't know if I can get into gear again. Anyway, I agree that debates should be conducted with decorum. I will have nothing to do with the abuse that often finds it's way on PPRuNe. Btw PP this is supposed to be impartial - ain't seen a sign of it yet!
tilli, let me answer yours first. But I have to say we are going round in circles here and after this I will stop following the oozlum bird and get off the roundabout.
Other industries where they have bonds? Well we now know, just I said, they do. And in the very field RD didn't expect - as he used that example twice. ICL is another computer giant where they do to I checked at their head office today. There are, of course, other company's and it would be extremely naive to think otherwise. OK the 3 Services was stretching it a bit but it's not far from civvy street in that regard.
Your third para indicates that you didn't read my first post very well in regard to the problems caused in my operations. And with you respect you either deliberately missed the point or you completely misunderstood it. The PROBLEM stems from pilots accepting jobs, receiving an IR re-newal and type rating, base check and line checks and then staying for a few months and then departing. That meant we had to employ other pilots and go through the whole process again. How long do you think we should have continued to do that tilli? One fast jet pilot stayed for ONE month and went to BCal. I could have sued and won probably, but I had good relations with BCal and one Curly Walters, and I was not about rock the boat. It was a very soft approach on my part.
After that I took steps to avoid the problem in the future. But I would like to know how you know that operations didn't go down as a direct result of NOT bonding. You didn't know that I was having problems at the time but I can give you the names of the companies - but I am not going to.
I am sorry you are worried that my post mentioned pilots wanting jobs. But I didn't mention that it was abnormal. And what was wrong in asserting, though I didn't, that pilots and airlines go together. Can you think of another way to operate aeroplanes?
Profitability is the ONLY reason people run airlines. There NO inbetween. No other way. An aeroplane sitting on the ground if worthless junk if it ain't earning money. Who earns that money - the pilots! However, pilots cannot hold an airline to ransom, or expect that they hold the airline in their pocket! Oh that happens too. But it is incumbent on the airline to ensure that they treat pilots with respect - and even reverence. But that does NOT include GIVING them the opportunity to leave after they have been given expensive training. The bond was put in place to ensure that they KNEW what the consequences of that were. They accepted it and they signed a contract to endorse it. Crying wolf later is pointless and crass. Those that then moan because they don't like the hardness of the bullet they have to bite should look back at what they agreed to. Were there shotguns on the table when they signed? No! So the airline simply protects itself from the few who think that it is good for a screw.
Sorry tilli, but I can't have been explaining myself very well. Let me try this. If a company, any company, wants to remove itself to another part of the country it can do that without any reference to it's employees. What it must do, however, is inform them, and if the distance is greater than 15 miles and the employee does not want to go he can claim redundancy. If he is also bonded the company cannot include that in the package. Then, if the employee has no further contract with them, he can walk away. That some silly people didn't do that in recent times is down to them.
"Surely I can do better than that can't you". I'm trying tilli, against all odds and onesidedness!
Btw tilli, in answer to your question. I know RD quite well, I know his company quite well, I know the CEO quite well, I knew the previous boss quite well and I knew Jack Walker quite well. Does that answer your question?
RD
After the fiasco of losing the thread! ummmmm. It has given you time to realise that there are TWO computer companies, though why you chose IT's I will never know, who have bonds. There are other company's but I am NOT going to do research as you would like. I have more than enough work on PPRuNe to do.
So, I wonder why you took the point about BA. BA wouldn't have a problem with pilots bonding would they. They are the very company that pilots left most us smaller airlines in the lurch for!!
As I said the 3 services was stretching it a bit far, but the principal is still the same. Mind you they can go to the nick if they try to abscond!!!
We are, in all probablity, thinking of different airlines that went down in the 80's - understandable. But it makes no difference they did suffer severely as a result of NOT getting the bond under way. Don't forget too that it was BM who placed it on the map as it were. And it was they who first tested it in court - and won.
I am getting the point about a bonded bank loan. But I then to have to ask. WHY did you accept it? As I said to tilli, did they have shotguns at the ready? Were you so desperate for a job that you let the company nail your backside to the wall? Did you get advice? Does it affect your work performance? Shall I go on RD? Very unsatisfactory indeed.
So how do you plan for of dishonest pilots using an airline to get their licences and then leaving them having "taken" up to £25,000 out of the company's bank account?
Now we come to being British. I am actually quite proud of that but that is beside the point. What you said was the British have a certain way of dealing with things. Well, the point I was trying to make was that you have chosen to work in a British Society and in the same environment that is British. You cannot argue with that. But you chose to do so. Like I said we are what we are. The fact that you chose to work in this environment means that you choose, or not, to accept it. Whingeing about it will not alter it. We do some daft things in this country, but doesn't every country do that?
I just cannot grasp your real meaning in your last para RD, the fact is that you have to find the symptom before you can cure it. Pilots and airlines alike have not come near to finding how to cure the symptons. Perhaps one day they will but I doubt it. One reason for this is that there is a deep underlying mistrust of each other. Now how would you see that being cured? Tell you what RD. You'll never see it in your lifetime and neither will the current generation of young pilots. It will require a new sense of well being - and hell might just freeze over before that happens.
I am getting to end of this and I have enjoyed it but I can hold my hand on my heart and say that I did have a high regard for those pilots who were loyal to me. I returned it in full measure.
30 of my pilots went to BA, and about another 40 went to Virgin, Britannia, Monarch, Air 2000, Airtours and other operations all round the world. I met one in Florida three weeks ago having a great life.
No sticks RD. Not once, but plenty of respect for them is what I gave, and what is need now. That I was also a pilot helped too and perhaps this is where one particular Chairman of a major comes unstuck. He hates pilots! But he is good at getting their backs up and they would all like to do him in I expect. I would like to meet him to give him some good advice. Never treat your pilots with contempt, they fly your aeroplanes and make your money.
But pilots also have a problem. So long as they treat an airline with contempt and disregard they will always be bonded. It's the name of the game and it will remain.
Bed for me now but a good debate. I hope my input has been at least a little bit useful.