DFC,
I do hope in your last paragraph you are not trying to say the pilot is in the right... the frequency was busy, the pilot was offered a different turn but would only accept a turn in the direction he stated... a direction that was not available because of the numerous aircraft that were in his way. Even a climb or descent to facilitate his turn was not feasible because of the traffic situation. The pilot was in his right to ask (and it is good that he did and did not just turn), and was well within his right to ask again when refused, stressing how much he needed the turn. However once he had got to that point, he should have stopped.
If he felt strongly about it, he could then file a report on landing and an appreciation from both sides may have been gained (but how many pilots, especially LoCo pilots with multiple sectors and minimum turn around times, will want to or can be bothered to go into paperwork? They'd rather get their way in the air - which is understandable to a degree).
The RT was extremely busy, this pilot did not help especially as the controller concerned had explicitly told him that he could not turn in that direction, told him why, and offered an alternative (which was the only one available but unfortunately was of no use to the pilot). Asking once, or even twice, stressing how much you really want to turn is acceptable, constant badgering and complaining to the point of arguing is not. It can be extremely dangerous.
As for the MOR, it would include the situation experienced, but on replay, it would highlight the poor appreciation by the pilot (a bit of a re-briefing on airmanship and appreciation of what else is going on in busy airspace methinks), particularly in similar circumstances on Sunday, when it was investigated.
ATCOs are not 'only responsible' for the safety of the ATS provided, they are responsible for the safety of all aircraft under their charge.
You are correct in stating that the ultimate responsibility for an individual aircraft lies with the Captain. Unfortunately the ATCO often has more than just one aircraft to worry about, which is why sometimes (rarely) we have to say no.
I too would not fly into a CB if at all possible (talking from experience here, NATS ATCO is my second career - I flew for a living beforehand) - you state that you will turn (and indeed have done so) before getting permission, especially when the RT is congested. That is your perogative and right, and if there is an incident, you would have good mitigating reasons... however that does not detract from the statement that the pilot on Sunday displayed poor airmanship and awareness - did he think he was the only aircraft with weather? Did he think it was acceptable to constantly transmit on an obviously very busy frequency during what was obviously a difficult time for all (aircrew and ATCOs), when he had been given explicit reasons as to why he could not be given the turn he requested?
Bad weather is not an acceptable excuse for poor airmanship... I do not know of any ATCO that would refuse a turn if they could give it, apart from the fact that that is what we are here for (whilst ensuring the safety of all our other aircraft whilst granting the turn), it is not defendable. However, what is even more indefensible, is an ATCO who would let an aircraft turn when it asks (even when asking for a very good reason), when granting that turn would create a dangerous situation for the aircraft and other aircraft besides.
Bear in mind the period we were talking about on Sunday was extreme - we often have weather but this happened at just the wrong time with regards to the inbound traffic situation and the weather was particularly nasty. Normally when we have weather we have it (traffic) flowed to the point that we can give the pilot the turn he/she wants, every time without fail. (Even though it usually then means we have to do some frantic coordination).
This should make it even more evident to aircrews that when we say no, it's for a damned good reason, not just for the hell of it!!
Regards
Anotherthing
Last edited by anotherthing; 11th Jun 2009 at 09:36.