Ladies & Gents
I have sat back and watched this debate develop. It’s much better than I had dared hope. Thank you all for your views. Even the ones that I REALLY appear to have upset. If I have, then I apologise. I wanted to kick it off in a slightly contentious manner so as to ‘encourage’ your participation. Well that worked!
>>>>>Spitoon
But that's no reason to all but promote the policy here and, no doubt, on the flight deck in Antigua's case. If I'm a bit less antagonistic than in my last post, there's no straight answer to your questions - all I'm asking for is a little common sense. I just don't think planning that tightly on fuel, even on a nice day, is sensible. <<<<<
Spitoon, I’m not promoting any such thing. I’m merely saying that this is the company policy that I am stuck with. I don’t enthusiastically chop back the fuel at the planning stage to prove that it can be done. Just the opposite. Ask any of the co-pilots that fly with me. OK, you can’t, but if you knew me personally, well….. shall we say you’d be convinced. Exaggerating a point to make it maybe. I plead guilty to that.
What I was trying to say is that the fuel policy we have does not sit well with the ATC environment, phraseology, et al, as exists in the London Area, WHEN, for whatever reason, we find ourselves in a hold, perfectly properly committed to an airport, and getting low on fuel because things haven’t gone swimmingly over the past thirteen hours. Doesn’t always happen, we don’t want it to happen, we don’t plan for it to happen, but when it does happen I would like pretty please to have a form of words somewhere between strained silence and a mayday. And not to be criticised for using it. Simple as that.
>>>>>Even Antigua says he will carry more fuel when the weather is forecast to be poor - but I wonder how much. Just enough to cater for the holding that he, with his years of experience, thinks is reasonable for the weather conditions?<<<<<
Not ‘even’ Antigua… ‘especially’ Antigua takes LOTS. But we weren’t talking about those conditions, were we?
>>>>>Flanker
Come on Nigel!WHO ultimately lets it get to that state?Going round in circles 'till you've no options!!! Being MOR'd doesn't worry him he says,well neither does running out of fuel it seems.But he's been doing it for so long that he can see the future and he just 'knows' that its safe!<<<<<
Well I certainly seem to have got up your nose Flanker.
I said none of that in the way you put it. Let me try again. Do you think I would have started this if it didn’t worry me? The whole point of the posting is that it does worry me. And if I didn’t care……? See above. I know it’s not safe when we get 2.5mile spacing whether we like it or not.
>>>>>Expeditedescent
Your email however has been doing the rounds at work, and I can assure you that your comments regarding the LL Directors lack of suitable final approach spacing have not gone down very well, and neither did the tone of the end of that mail. Contrary to your belief most go-arounds at Heathrow are not caused by inadequate final approach spacing..........which is FYI done superbly by very skilled people in a very intense situation.......I would challenge you to do an hour of LL FIN. The majority of goarounds are caused by late runway vacations.
As has already been stated on here, operating as a regular into Heathrow, I think it is misguided to put oneself in a position where one does not have enough fuel to make at least one go-around without getting into a drastic mayday situation.
Some of your assumptions and comments about my collegue have not been appreciated,
and have been read and noted by the controller concerned.<<<<<
May I call you ED?
Now this posting DOES worry me a lot. I am not worried by the implied threat either. I am hoping that we can put this down to the limitations of this medium ( no body language, facial expression, etc…). Some have said that it would have been nice to know that an MOR had been filed, at least. Or a ‘please ring the watch supervisor on ext….’ would have been responded to, believe me. I’m sure he was very busy, so no problem.
Please read my original posting again. I made no blanket accusation about bad spacing. I think you do a marvellous job. I do not know how you do it. You are consistently the best in the world in very trying circumstances.
But you must admit you are human, and occasional mistakes will be made. I can count on the fingers of one finger how many times it has happened to me in the last five years. But it
has happened. Once. And once the preceding a/c just didn’t clear. One of ours too… double whammy. Sods law says one of these will happen to me on the odd occasion when fuel is tight. Chaps/chapesses, IT ONLY HAS TO HAPPEN ONCE.
>>>>>The majority of goarounds are caused by late runway vacations.<<<<
IT DOESN’T MATTER! If we didn’t have only 2.5 miles then it probably wouldn’t happen then.
Nobody willingly ‘lets’ the fuel get very low. If you divert, you use the diversion fuel and a bit more moving to put yourself in the same position at a different airport, only with less fuel. I personally don’t have a clue how many track miles you are going to make me do going there, either. Just that piece of the unknown may cause a mayday even before reaching another airport. At least you know where you are holding at BNN for LHR.
ED, I meant no disrespect to anybody, or any group of controllers. But PLEASE accept that we all make mistakes. I do. Lots.
Getting stuffy about it, sir, is in my humble opinion, dangerous in itself. We had that knocked out of us on countless CRM courses.
Lets leave it at that.
Look in my profile and get the chap involved to e-mail me privately, and I’ll apologise in person, if you like. Like my old flying instructor used to say ‘smack him in the teeth and buy him a bucket of beer’.
One thing IS clear to me. People DO care about this topic, and DO want to improve it. As far as I am concerned,…… job done.
Thanks Everybody
‘You’ve all done very well’
ANTIGUA
M.MouseStill just another number posted 23rd April 2002 20:13 What is the difference between committing to a single runway at destination and diverting to a single runway?
About 6 tonnes of fuel,usually MM!
