SASless - gosh you bring back memories!! VNE measured by pitch up and left roll..............Brilliant! I remember in a Whirlwind 7 as SAR Culdrose in a howling westerly gale going low over the cliff edge as fast as we could to rescue some swept off his feet fisherman, hitting retreating blade stall par excellance as the angle of attack dramatically changed due to the rising air at the cliff edge. WW7 flipped nose up, flicked left, crewmen thrown from door to somewhere else, intercom unplugged, hero pilot fleetingly thought ******me, and once through the updraught the WW recovered itself. Only thing left to do was to get the RRPM somewhere back to where the makers thought that onward flight and heroic rescue became possible. I learned a little more about flying from that, and thank goodness it was a tall cliff to allow recovery before hitting the salty stuff. Keep going SASless, you bring a breath of fresh air to these proceedings...............