Flingwing . I do take your points and they are very valid. I accept that some of what i said was somewhat flippant

I am not convinced ( having spoken to a handfull of experienced IR pilots ) that popping into cloud with a current IR pilot with say 1000 ft cloud base , is actually dangerous . They say that sas etc is not necessary for short periods of ifr and the mil do it regularly . I accept prob not a good idea in a r22 but if there was a way of giving people real hands on experience it would be a start. I knew people would blindly spout rules at me ...that is the nature of people , usually the ones who like to wear gold bars on their shirts. But there is no reason why one could not do some actual ifr training in a single safely . I have flown in an MD 500 quite happily , safely and legally in cloud so , other than the rules again, it would be quite possible . Lets just leave things as they are and wait for the next one i guess .