PPRuNe Forums - View Single Post - Are Flex / De Rated take offs safe?
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Old 20th May 2008, 17:00
  #70 (permalink)  
ssg
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: USA
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Good Questin...Airfoil

If post V1, you have a problem, prior to rotation...you see 8000 feet left, a 1000 ft stopway, and Iowa corn fields beyond...In just about all GA planes including large corporate jets, the question of being able to stop is moot...yes you can...

The question to fly your burning wreck up into the clouds under these circumstances is also moot..you don't do it...

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After days of arguing with posters on the mertis of post V1 aborts, it turns out I was right...please see SR71s Boeing link on the 'would you abort after V1thread' . I owe SR71 lunch and my sanity..

There is a concept of Min and Max V1s, which will lead to an excellent discussion I think..

Turns out my method of simply 'looking out and seeing if I have enough runway to stop' post V1, has been mathematicaly figured out my Boeing.

On a long runway, in our plane, we could say rotate at 3000 ft and 95 kts.... or you chose to stay on the ground, and continue to accelerate, there is a place, way down farther on the runway, at a certain speed at which you need to start slowing down, inorder to stop before the end of the runway.. this is a v speed like any other... That could be 10000ft and at a speed of 160kts...that could be a V1max...but not technicaly as it's after VR, but for the purposes of stopping, this is the last place on the runway, at a certain speed to do it...

So I will crown a new v speed..the last chance to stop the aircraft after Vr...: Vssg.



In a small plane, they can rotate, take off, land, do it a couple of times before running out of runway..in a small jet, maybe twice...and how do they do this...'hey george...got enough runway infront of us...looks good to me' an they do it...

So here is the Flex or reduced thrust problem....

So now we are sitting here with all this runway infront of us...tons of room to stop...balanced field is 5000ft on a 12000 ft runway..lots of margin for a post V1 stop, lost of safety.....and someone says..

'Let's try to baby the engines today...use reduced power on take off...with the new settings balanced field is now 10000 feet. Let's go.'

So the plane burns up 7000ft, V1...go...just prior Vr, which would be around 10000 ft....both Thrust reversers pop out..11000 ft, pilot realizes he can't fly with both TRs out, pulls the levers 12000ft...he barrels into the corn field..houses, hotel. ect...

He did everything right on that flight, he had the numbers, he was trying to save money, ..everyone is dead...

Had he chosen not to use Flex, or reduced thrust, and hit VR with a TR problem at 5000 ft, he would have made it...7000 ft to slow the plane down...

If on a thousand flights in a year this operator had chosen not to burn up every available ft of runway, every time he took off, to save a buck on engine maintanance, and use up all his margin of safety...how much safer would that be?
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