See what I mean blanketstacker? Not exactly falling over ourselves saying; "Thank goodness you're here at last, we were getting worried, now what do you want to know?". As Jacko says it's a case of getting some time in, and new boys are bullied unmercifully. We're trying to stamp it out, but some here think that it is character building! My advice remains, put in your twopenneth on the Nimrod, Hercules, Chinook threads etc as they seem to be your interest. "As yea sow so shalt thou reap", or words to that effect. Apropos your main contention that UKNDA's aim is to increase the Defence Budget, all very good but the common theme through the threads I have already mentioned plus JPA, Defence Estates charging charities, base closures, wearing uniforms in public, etc etc is the MOD. What started in my day as an administrative arrangement in Whitehall has turned into a monster, in my opinion (and that's all you get here, opinions!). The incompetence, wastefulness and utter mendaciousness of that organisation means that it is truly a "Ministry of Waste". My particular hobby horse (well I was bound to get round to it eventually) is Military Airworthiness. The accidents that you have mentioned plus many others point to the suspicion that many of our military airfleets are anything but airworthy. It is my contention that the machinery to correct this serious shortcoming is fatally flawed, as the operating authority and the airworthiness authority are one and the same, ie the MOD. It would not work in civil aviation, nor does it work for the military. Military Aircraft Airworthiness authority must be removed from the MOD and placed in an independent MAA alongside, or jointly with, the CAA. See? All you get is a finger stabbing lecture that you could get just as easily from any London cabbie. And another thing...