tablelover - Fair enough, but I think where we disagree is on the gravity of this alleged cock-up. Under normal circumstances I'd be in agreement with you that we don't know the full circumstances of an event and as such are unable to comment. A fine example is the BA 3 eng flight back from LAX in which too many people jumped to the conclusion that because an engine had failed the flight must be dangerous. This case, however, is a different kettle of fish. If the aircraft pushed back and took off with frozen deposits on the wings, there is no extra information we don't know that would justify it. There's no knowledge of previous de-icing or preparation required, they shouldn't be doing it, and if you believe LTD is genuine in his reports of snow on the wings then the Iberia crew dropped the ball big time. No airline, manufacturer or regulator is going to spring to the crews defence if they came a cropper because they would have clearly been in the wrong. Sigmund Freud said "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar", and to paraphrase sometimes a wrong is just a wrong. Trying to doggedly defend that wrong on principle is not a progressive approach to flight safety.