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Old 20th Aug 2001, 23:29
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Jackonicko
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
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Some early VNAF kills were high speed slash attacks - they'd been trained to use guns (didn't have 'owt else), whereas the bulk of US fighters were missle only at the start of the war. They were prepared and equipped for the close-in turning fight (with the -17 at lower speeds, with the -21 at all).

Re BoB. There is no accurate source of kills and losses by type. Kill claims were grossly over-exaggerated (and in the RAF, the extent of exaggeration varied by unit - No.41 claimed kills on days when enemy aircraft were lost in that area, at the right time, while No.242, for instance claimed large numbers of enemy aircraft on days when the Germans lost nothing at all!) and losses were often ascribed to causes other than enemy action, even when enemy action was the cause - and vice versa. Trying to assess exactly what type achieved what is a minefield! But, generally speaking, the Spit seems to have done better (in expert or experienced hands) than the 109 - you shouldn't count the fresh units manned by 20 hr FOs, really - the Luftwaffe didn't have any!

Re Ram-designations.

Ram- is short for Ramenskoye, the town nearest to the LII test centre at Zhukhovskii. They were provisional reporting names (perhaps US, rather than NATO ASCC?) allocated to aircraft seen at 'Ramenskoye' (as we thought Zhuk was called) before a type entered service and thus became eligible for a 'proper' ASCC name.

The Ram-J, -K and -L designations dated from late '77 when the 9-12, T10 and T8 (MiG-29, Su-27 and Su-25 prototypes) were at Zhuk. for their initial flight trials. The MiG-29 entered frontline service in 1983, with three Regiments, one at Kubinka, one at Ros, and I can't remember the third. The 'Fulcrum' designation probably appeared when the first ones reached the GSFG (Group of Sov Forces in Germany).

109 vs I-16 is an interesting one, with a real contrast between Spain and Barbarossa. Maybe Stalin's purges, leaving the Red Air Force denuded of anyone remotely capable explains the one-sided result as much as the merits and de-merits of any aircraft type involved. I believe that even Hs 123 dive bombers got air-to-air kills in '41 on the Ostfront!

[ 20 August 2001: Message edited by: Jackonicko ]
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