Whatever the circumstances, and wherever the CM decide to aportion respective amounts of blame, this is a clear case of Human Error. My thoughts are with the dead crew, however to Err is Human. Under JAROPs, We have recognised this in flight crews for 17 years and made Human Factors Training Mandatory. We Have even made HF training mandatory for engineers who can release an aircraft to fly with a signature. The ATCO concerned and all other ATCO's, deserve the right to have the benifit of HF training. They are a key part to our safe and effective ops. If the CM press with this one, they do not have a cat in hells chance. There but for the grace of god!!!. . . . <small>[ 24 March 2002, 22:17: Message edited by: Tigs ]</small>