vortex ring alt + vsi

[topendtorque]

nigelh you are right, English is not my first tongue, low level rotary flight is, mainly of the ’47 dialect but more recently the last few k hours, I’ve included some robust superlatives to my vocabulary in the R22 inflection of the repartee’.

And no, I probably wouldn’t be able to afford the squirrel job; maybe I’ll try to put together a few gravel rashed pennies from the tougher chapters of my life as a down deposit. I am sure you recognise that I am not being derogatory with that, and I have already had a go at em, they don’t do much for me.

It may well be what ToT is doing at 80' but it's not full VRS at all

For Crab, no I don’t do fully blown VRS from eighty feet, heaven help us. We start the learning process from at least 2000’. Three reasons for that;

1) The instability of the T/R couple with the descent frightens the subject, they need frightening.

2) It takes all of that to get a macine (an R22 at least) to enter fully blown VRS maybe three times if you are lucky before finishing at 500’, and

3) There is plenty of time for the subject to observe the altimeter which will indicate just how long it was in VRS. This is usually no more than eighty feet, seen as a quick flick on the altimeter, after the event. The standard recovery usually does nothing more than flatten out the vertical descent long after VRS has departed.

It is important for the subject to understand that the most frightening thing about VRS is the incipient stage where the first symptom is that little sinking feeling in the pit of the stomach. This is not just another phenomenon that is occurring during the learning of this low level mystique and it’s OK if it happens because if it gets bad the C & T guy will take over!! Oh no, if you want to fail just think and act that.

This is why we play with the incipient stage, recognition and absolutely automatic recovery before it develops. Very important stuff for people who might have their attention diverted elsewhere, being shot at, cows running amok, targets turning downwind from gun or camera, fugitives trying to hide from the nite sun under brush when the wind is all over the joint, a camera man bellowing –this way that way, etc.

So as the subjects are being trained for an operational environment at below 100’ when their attention may be diverted elsewhere, then it follows to reason that I will first demonstrate at that height and less, the pitfalls, then over time try to trap them into ‘situations’ where they WILL get hurt if THEY don’t recover.

I wouldn't be doing an incipient demo at anything less than 2000' just in case.

As far as pussy footing around doing incipient VRS at above 2000’ Jesus Crab, get real, I had you pegged well above that sort of comment.
All it is is demonstration, awareness and covered practice, without getting tooo bogged down in theory.

It follows on from the downwind theory, you know, downwind, decreasing airspeed and descending are the same as drinking, driving and eventually death.
It’s the practical that counts, not some high falutin’ drummed up philosophy, which may well be dodgy.

I thoroughly applaud any institution that trains its subjects in the recognition and recovery from VRS, before it happens.
It will get you and it will hurt, which is why I use the statement –“notice that if you really stuff it up then you seldom fall more than eighty feet, so if you enter at fifty feet it is only ever the last thirty that will hurt”- end quote.

It usually gets the message across; my business is to protect people.

Can I go back to nigelh again, VRS and EOL’s and other known emergency exercises is all about the philosophies of circumstances that are a matter of chance not choice of our trade. I agree that Low G pushovers are absolutely stupid, and a manoeuvre of choice.

We once had a top dog check pilot from down south who (unbeknown to us) was demonstrating the low G pushover and then the recovery. This is until he came up against one youngster whom he frightened straight up and who said – “do that again an I’ll f’n choke yer”.

Exercise was finished, ops manager complained to, top dog smart a##e sent on next plane south and youngster well applauded.

We later heard that during the argument that youngster had said, ‘the reason I don’t wanner do it is because it’s in that book under yer f’n seat that it’s dangerous and I ain’t gunna do it, get it.’ Nuff said.

EOL’s are often a matter of chance not choice, just a couple of days ago a B206 went into the ocean off Queensland, the turbine spooled down I hear. How many threads here are started with the subject being an emergency landing, all sorts of aircraft?

And Nigel you are an old ’47 hand, if that is true, look me in the eye and tell me that you have never had an emergency auto. Of course you cannot. So we practice them, which is best done at the ab-initio stage and then usually it’s only needed for ‘differences of type’ later.

I have another saying- ‘practised dexterity in the areas of known emergencies will usually lead to automatic recovery in the areas of unknown emergencies.’ I have found that doctrine as cheap insurance. A salutary repast for all low level disciples.

I'm with you on this one, recovery from VRS is practised at the incipient stage, because the real McCoy is too unpredictable and therefore, too risky.

Hihover, you have thoroughly confused me, just what is dangerous about the manoeuvre, as long as it’s accomplished well away from the firmer terror?

Have ye never descended from a high rise in an express elevator? It's all the same, you descend in your own cocoon of air in ignorant bliss of the surroundings and at the bottom - you stop - the doors open - and - you step out into fresh air
No need for the canaries in your head to beat themselves into submission. You’ve obviously never practised the idea.

The blade stresses are not terrible during BVI, usually high speed flight and maneuvering are much harder on the blades.

I sincerely hope that this is the case as deliberate blade slap to project noise well ahead of you when moving mooies is a very much used tool. Of late we have heard it may contribute to pulling the skin off an R22 blade???