westhawk, ATC Watcher, markjoy, Flagon et al … sage words!
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onetrack .. I dislike having to dissect a persons musing in this place, however given the sensitivities (both state and those directly affected) of this ‘accident’, and the number of people around the world watching this discussion, it would be remise not to address some of the statements you have made!
ATC watcher - I know precisely how ATC works .. and maybe you should repeat slowly to yourself ... Air ... Traffic ... Control ..
… with respect, you do
not know precisely how air traffic control works! .. your musings indicate a simplistic penchant to blame ATC whenever two aircraft are not separated .. yet anyone with half a clue would understand the myriad of circumstances that could lead to an Airprox or MAC that could have zero to do with the Air Traffic Controllers on duty i.e.
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- Aircraft encoder errors (would also likely include miscommunication)
- Aircraft malfunction
- Aircrew miscommunication (primary radar or procedural airspaces)
- Air traffic control equipment failure (surveillance and/or comm)
- Weather related unforseen upsets
- There are others but lets not go there in the current global climate for fear of the un-informed assuming it might apply in this case!
Maybe I'm missing something here .. but I understood that essentially, ATC's job is to provide guidance to, and separation between aircraft, to prevent collision between them, or terra firma.
….
as far as is practicable!
There has been a MAC, which indicates a failure of ATC. How much simpler do you want it?
…again, from a simplistic un-informed point of view, you might draw that conclusion … in reality, do you think ATC are responsible in the above sorts of scenarios … because that is what you have erroneously implied! ...…
how much simpler do you want it??
Scurvy Dawg - The Brazilian media produced this report ..
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N04331952.htm .. in which this quote is found .. "We
know that the transponder was turned off," said Jose Carlos Pereira, the head of Brazil's airports authority, the Estado De Sao Paulo newspaper reported on Wednesday ..
… yes, we have all read that!
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Lets
assume 
for the sake of argument that Mr Pereira was referring to the TXPDR being ‘off’ in the raw sense of the word, not necessarily saying the crew physically turned it off! .. could this have been his intended context?! …. if it was, it would be an accurate statement as it is clear the TXPDR was OFF! … or;
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… the other being
your implied/assumed context of his statement that
the crew turned it off for some reason!!
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If that is indeed what he meant … there has been no follow-up statement to corroborate it, in fact, that context is being actively debunked by the lawyers for the Embraer crew (not suprisingly)!
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….that may mean one of three things:-
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1. Mr Pereira is not saying anything else until the report is out.
2. It may have been said without witness or corroborating evidence (DFDR/CVR) and can no longer be substantiated.
3. It was hearsay in the first place (in which case he will have his empennage sued off).
So .. who's casting the slurs here?? .. this guy (head of the Brazil AA, note) KNOWS for sure, the transponder was TURNED OFF .. long before even any preliminary investigation is completed ..
…. do you see the point? .. it is not too difficult to grasp I would have thought!
I am neither insensitive, nor hypocritical, nor unfair.
.. I would beg to differ
The AT Controller has been removed, and I feel for that person. However, the fact that they have been removed surely indicates that overwhelming guilt and the usually resultant depression set in on this person.
… as has been eloquently stated by others, you have no empathy for or understanding of the responsibilities and seriousness with which the provision of air traffic control services is taken by those who hold that responsibility every day around the globe moving thousands of aircraft!
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… an air traffic controller (
irrespective of the role he or she may have played in any given incident or accident) involved in an incident is/should be removed from operational duties as soon as safely practicable to ensure service safety and continuity!
That only happens, once someone realises that they have failed in the proper execution of their highly-responsible job, and people have died as a result.
…. a dramatic example of crisis management of this type (post accident ATC ‘distraction’) is to be found in the actions of Sky Guide following the horrific MAC over Lake Constance in Europe! … very serious consideration was given to the likely ‘psychological’ effect on
all of the staff in that centre and surrounds! … traffic metering and other measures were promulgated to allow the controllers (ALL of them first class professionals) time to reacquire their focus, absorb and adjust to the horror of what had occurred to the passengers and crew of both aircraft as well as their colleague! …. to do otherwise would have been irresponsible and unthinkable!
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.. following your logic …… do you consider all of them guilty because they were stood-down??
Seems pretty clear-cut to me.
.. well it might ...
from a position of ignorance!!
Maybe the factor that will never be investigated .. but needs to be .. is the military control of civil airspace in Brazil. As has been noted before, military people are trained to push everything to the limit, and take extreme risks.
.. that is a hideous slur against Brazilian ATC’s! … provide some factual basis for this or do the decent thing and retract your statement!
Civilian trainees, particularly where pax are concerned, are trained, to never take risks. Whether this conflict comes up, in Brazilian ATC, is a point that maybe needs serious examination.
… again, provide us with something other than a motherhood statement to support this contention!
Despite FW190's reassurances .. ATC in Brazil has failed, this time .. in the worst possible way.
… that has not been inferred or established on public record!
Careful examination of all features of Brazilian ATC is now warranted to find the weak points.
I am sure if any
‘systemic’ deficiencies are identified, they will be recorded and corrected!!
As is noted in construction and mining industries .. despite extreme safety cultures being instigated .. there is a "risk-taking" mentality, that still exists amongst a small section of employees and managers .. which leads to fatalities. Whether that same mentality exists in Brazilian ATC needs to be examined as part of the accident investigation process.
.. mate, you may well be a competent miner and knowledgeable regarding wilful risk taking in that industry, but I am certain beyond doubt that air traffic controllers (no matter their location) would never wilfully place the travelling public in jeopardy!
… anyone that displayed even the slightest inclination to unreasonable ‘risk taking’ would not pass first base .. that is why we have psych testing, training, simulators, supervision and recurrent check and standards systems!
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.. now it might be fair to say that commercial pressures are apparent in ATS in certain areas around the world ... if it is found that these 'systemic' issues play any part in an accident .. is it then reasonable to apportion blame to individual air traffic controllers??
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… even if by some stretch of the imagination an operator did err unresonably or intentionally, multi-layered system defences come into play! .. and they would not last long in operations!
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.. we do not muck about with other peoples lives FULL STOP!!!
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… good day to you!
