Originally Posted by Few Cloudy
Seems to me that if someone calls Pan Pan, which is reported to have been the original case here, the ATC controller on duty should prick up his ears, which didn't happen until the crew upgraded to Mayday.
The whole point of these phrases Mayday, Pan (and earlier Securite) is that they are international - regardless of poor English.
A couple of weeks ago we read of a Pan call by an English speaking crew over Madrid not being understood. Now we have a Pan call by a non English crew not being understood in an English environment.
Maybe it is time to review these procedures and make sure we are all familiar with them.
FC.
Dear Cloudy, I posted this on the Italian forum. Could you, or someone, try to respond to the questions? I am not an operational expert, I'm not (yet) a pilot but have been teaching English to aviation (flying and non-flying) personnel for some time now and would like to understand a few operational aspects of this mishap.
Also could you please tell me a link or some more info on the Madrid incident. I use these in class often.
I appreciate it. Thanks, PE
My exchange was:
One point to be made and not missed...
It was documented in the report that the communications of the Commander of I-BIKE were well more than sufficient linguistically.
1
. The commander acknowledged this instruction and called
“GOING AROUND, REQUEST A HOLDING PATTERN
OVERHEAD CHILTERN OR OCKAM TO RESOLVE A
LITTLE FAILURE” but ATC were not advised of the
specific nature of the failure.Sounds OK to me, no mention of EL proficiency problems...then
2.
Following the frequency change, (PE asks here: frequency change means that the ATC has changed or is it the same person as before?)
the commander again requested radar vectors and said
“we require a few minutes to resolve
a little …navigation failure …”. The
controller asked for the message to be repeated, possibly
due to the commander’s heavily accented English, and
subsequently acknowledged the request.
This time, albeit not immediately (they wrote POSSIBLY), so the ATC understood.
AZ got his message through.
I ask you would this not just be a procedural problem? To resolve problems we must focus on them not "piddle around" (usare per altre agende...).
Another communication from AZ:
At about 0731 hrs, ATC requested if the aircraft had
a problem. The commander reported that the aircraft
had had “a double inertial reference failure” but the
controller replied that the implications of this were not
understood.
Here the ATC could understand the language but not the operational aspect -implications!
Next:
At about 0734 hrs, he transmitted a PAN
call requesting assistance for a radar vectored approach
to Runway 09L, explaining the aircraft had suffered a
navigation problem. ATC did not respond initially, due
to a double transmission, but another aircraft brought it
to their attention.
ATC was busy not unable to understand English proficiency-note the double transmission WAS NOT the other pilot trying to assist-...
Could an operational person help me understand if this is a problem in procedue and not linguistic performance (on either the part of the pilot or the ATC)?
Also, the other pilot in the communication said
“that basically
means that they haven’t got all the
nice bits of nav kit …they are basically
point and shoot .....”.
Could you explain this to me? ..."point and shoot?"
The other pilot was translating a technical problem not language. See the problem for what it is. Alitalia is no different than any other foreign airline, some speak English well, some a little better and -maybe -some worse. It is important that when a problem occurs we ALL pull together to resolve it, properly and leave the mudslinging for the politicians.
The purpose of the new standard is so the proficiency of the pilot and atc in International airspace is at a level that one can "understand and be understood". In situations where there is a congestion of traffic it is important. But we must look at if it was the pronunciation and/or the atc's comprehension...or procedural faults and failings.
Best to all,
PE