You are right with the vacant bands of 3000' to 4000' with traffic sauntering down. However what you fail to say is that it is Scottish who control the hold and so is your responsibility for descent, the approach controllers control most of the hold in the London TMA.
You obviously 'rang off' before you read my last comment about some of us having been bitten. Are we likely to be talking about biting ourselves ??
I am referring to occasions where we have transferred traffic above the Min Stack (I can recall having done so at least up to FL130 or higher with 4 aircraft approaching the hold - to allow APC to manage the arrivals I foolishly thought.) It is not every controller at EDI by any means but certainly on my Watch we recognise the voices of those who we would rather not give anything above Min Stack too. I guess you'll recognise voices at other units too where you'd rather do it exactly by the book. Once you've been bitten then the trust disappears.
but we are forever sitting on radar having told TLA that say FL80 is free
Hand on heart, I have NEVER been told when Min Stack is vacated (or other levels if delegated). Usually the P man has to call to find out. Fortunately we have had the MATS Part 2 changed recently so we can use Mode C (based on MATS Part 1 level occupancy rules and 'anticipated manner') so it does at least now allow us other options than sitting on our hands
.
So you prefer to go for a sequence that mightn't suit the airport because YOU can't manage the stack efficiently as YOU have just stated above.
Your premise is based on a false assumption which was because you didn't pick up that I was talking about when traffic in the hold had been transferred to EDI. See above. Why would we complain about 3-4000' gaps if we had the traffic ourselves ?
Doh !!! Also, the MATS Part 2 allows sequences. Don't like it ?? Then ask for it to be changed by inter unit agreement.
It is also true that you have the aircraft ETAs. You know when the expected busy peaks are inbound (as well as knowing the outbound plans as well). If you want things to the hold, for departure gaps or because you expect to get swamped, is there any reason you can't phone up and co-ordinate thus ?? The blame seems all a one way street with you, yet you also have an ability to forward plan I guarantee. Things may not end the way they are expected (+/- 5 mins on ETAs for example can provide a slightly false picture), but at least if you told ScACC what you would like then things can be done early for the benefit of all. Don't say it can't be done because I have had EDI controllers do exactly that with me before - e.g ''I'll take the first 2 on headings and would like 10 miles between subsequent arrivals in trail otherwise to the hold.'' I get an early heads up - the pilots get an early heads up - and I can put some effort in to delivering what the APC wants so no one gets held. And as we know the guys and girls who do the things like that by their voice, we are totally comfortable and have a high degree of belief in them and don't expect any problems.
Also the main reason for the initial large gap is Scottish very rarely give us control of more than one aircraft in the stack and so by the time we can bring an aircraft off the stack the gap is already there!
Sorry, still talking about my usual experience of where EDI has all the holding traffic. Your point may be relevant if it was not that specific case.
Call me old fashioned but who has had incidents before now in the stack, I don't believe it was us at Edinburgh
Actually 'old fashioned' was not a phrase I'd associate with that kind of comment. Maybe your personal forte is launching aircraft with less than 5 miles and a catch up situation instead ?? Don't play the whiter than white card, because statistics and incident reports can shoot you down in flames in a second. And there's plenty ammo there for whatever side you wish to take. A dead end argument.
How about improve your attitude, have you ever met an ATCO3?
ATCO Grade has nothing to do with anything. I am sure you can find idiots at all levels, even yours.
So you think that is sufficient room for a Captain to prepare his aircraft for the hold? The aircraft should already be going into the hold like in the London TMA and if they then don't hold then it is a bonus for them, not the norm.
I guess you don't fly ?? Traffic is cleared by Scottish predominantly on the STAR on first contact. Therefore the Captain will be briefing to enter the hold at the STAR terminal fix. That's SOP in IFR flying. Still with me ?? Good. Now, unless it's one of the ones that has been cleared to an 8 mile final (unlikely if you have a sequence where there is an inkling there might be a hold, and it should also be subject to prior co-ordination - unless locked on a heading which meets the spirit of the Standing Agreement), nothing has changed in that pilots expectations. The fact he is on a vector still doesn't take away the fact the aircraft is set up for the STAR entry fix in the nav system, UNLESS someone in ATC tells him otherwise. Which would probably be EDI APC. Scottish have no idea what kind of approach will be given so the aircraft should be routeing as per the book and EDI then have the options to carry out APC.
As a final couple of points ...
weren't EDI offered places attending ScACC TRUCE last year where TMA Holding was the core exercise ?? EDI could have gained experience of managing holds in the sim, both sides could have discussed the scenarios and outcomes and how things could be improved, plus built up some understanding. Oh yeah, nobody appeared !!
And how come GLA seem to manage their hold OK even although it used less ?? Food for thought perhaps ??
Cossack
4 abreast abeam TLA for 06; traffic over TLA for 06 above traffic inbound 05 at GLA; traffic from the north east handed over late, direct and fast.
Yeah, yeah ..... glass houses and all that
4 abreast not allowed in the book - PF below PH without co-ordination, get real - traffic from the Northeast goes to STIRA, onward clearance is EDIs prerogative.
One day they may realise that stack management is an airport task, but I wouldn't hold your breath!
Most definitely a Terminal Controllers task. Airport are good at launching and doing DIR and FIN approach.
Stack management at TWEED by APC - could do better in some instances !!