Re: the aileron deflection I talked about- this is only ONE method I use when getting off remote airstrips ie river beds, beaches and strips around 280- 300metres...this is the typr eof flying my job requires and has been for 8 years...its just one method that a 38000hour bush pilot showed me and I find it works. Most aeroclubs will show you the corrects techniques or at least the basics. As for Mr 4spool- get your sorry arse into a 185 and find some small rough airstrips and test the theory you pillock...Lead Balloon- c185 pilot and chimbu- thankyou for your inputs---its all about learnig..the moment you think you know it all you will wind up in a box...nice to know LB that you did some PNG time...