Sasless said-
>"You operate in the part of the country that is renown for hazy visibility and lots of wooded areas with some very dark places.
We are both big boys here....and have enough experience to know the truth even if we do not always admit it publically.
Have you ever...do you ever....will you in the future.....fly over dark places under part 135 without having ground lights in view all of the time....one hundred percent of the time....while you do your good work at night?"<
My answer-
NO! Doesn't happen, period.
At the risk of being misunderstood, I will suggest that you may want to think about that question carefully. It suggests a wink and nudge attitude regarding some important rules.
I will repeat: We never- ever- fly without lights in sight. Further, I will suggest that the reason the posts you cite are significant is that the posters are exceptional. I could theoretically see the situation happening, if- and only if- the ground was clearly in sight, for surface reference. It hasn't happened yet. The only times, as a civilian, I haven't had lights in sight it was because I was IIMC.
SASless, again-
>"A post made at another web site...EMS related....kinda sums it up...comes from a discussion similar to ours here.
"Do you fly in the mountains at night? If you did you would understand the comment. We have no reporting stations for miles around us and there are mountain obscurations and rain showers around the area. The routes are over mountains and dark.The weather is VFR in some directions and IFR in others but without the goggles I won't be able to see it(zero ground lights in most directions). If I don't have goggles I don't go. I know the precip and clouds are out there but I don't know where. With the goggles I can see them as plain as day and avoid them as easily as day. It's quite simple really."
A second post....
"Now that our program has NVG's I can't believe the FAA has any hesitations about them. They are an absolute must for every operation, even in the city. They are absolutely unbelievable. Even the guys who flew the Gen 6 models are very impressed. I was able to shoot an autorotation to the spot the first night I flew with them. I am at work tonight and the weather is unflyable in most directions tonight without the googles. I come to work so much more relaxed on nights like tonight because I know that we will acually be able to see the weather if we launch. It's all mountains around us and without the goggles you simple just can't see.
As I used to say, we can't go take a look because we won't be able to see the weather. Now at least we can take a look and probably complete the mission without concern and with a huge safety margin compared to before. I don't like flying at night. Now I am a lot more comfortable with it. Now that the crew is flying with them they are starting to realize how bad it is to fly without them. "<
My answer-
Our program operates from the Georgia-South Carolina coast well into the Smokey Mountains. If the vis is marginal, usually it's possible to plan one's route to follow cultural lighting. Yes, it can take longer. Failing to do so can take an eternity... If we can't do that, we abort the flight, or decline and offer the flight to a program that may be in a more favorable situation. The patient can go by ground, and it's better to make that decision early. I- no- we've spent many nights at hospitals or nearby airports.
The "box of rocks" paradigm rules.
SASless-
>"My point is and shall remain that for all the wrong reasons but for the best of intentions....that is what we are doing out there when so many of these things happen.
"Say what you want to....we know that to be the truth. We each have been there....and probably we will be there again.
The use of NVG's in and of itself will greatly enhance the safety of our operations....those faint lights and that horizion will get much easier to see. But...also I shall keep saying...is at some point even the NVG's will fail to show up those lights and horizion. Then what? You are right back where we started but in much worse weather.
I have no doubt that the majority of pilots think as you do...this use of NVG's is yet another tool to enhance the safety of night operations. I wholeheartedly agree with you. But I know the nature of the business....and the pressures of the job.
You make note of the "outlaw" pilot....evidently he is well known and must be known to the operator. Simple direct questions....why is he still employed...why is he allowed to be an "outlaw"? Must he kill himself and some others in order for him to cease what he is doing? That is why I suggest NVG's have every possiblity of extending the problem they are designed to cure.
I can hear the muttered grumble when a guy turns down a flight because of visibility one night...."Well darn, we bought you these NVG's....and you still don't want to fly in the dark out to Podunk!"
You and your program might be pure at heart here....but the industry as a whole is just looking at another way to keep flying."
Final arguments from me-
First and most important point of issue, your statement "...is at some point even the NVG's will fail to show up those lights and horizion. Then what? You are right back where we started but in much worse weather." If you abort WITH goggles on, you still have the benefit of the goggles for the remainder of the flight. If you abort without, you do not- The advantage is clear.
A "Cowboy" pilot is a dead man walking, and it doesn't matter how he's equipped- pilot error kills. A program with the attitude cited is Darwinian, too, in spite of equipment, not because of it. If your program policies lead you to believe and behave otherwise, it's time to go elsewhere. You can get another job.
Every day, I pull a NOTAM brief. Unlit towers in my AO are commonly a page and a half, two pages of 9-point type. Power transmission lines and towers are always there. The mountains and national forests are always dark and challenging. Add the fact I operate in an area of almost constant haze and humidity, and low clouds are common. I've been IIMC more often on departure than in cruise- and it's much more exciting then, too.
Those issues would be resolved with NVGs. IFR approval, twins, 2 pilots, do not address do not address most of those dangers- related issues are factors in many 121 accidents...
Last edited by Devil 49; 26th Mar 2005 at 15:28.