Gents, let's not turn this excellent and even - handed discussion into a personal slanging match. If you want to do that, just f*****g PM or e-mail each other!
To reflect earlier posts, IMHO 'Democracy' will not work in the ME - they are not a 'nation' (ANY ME nation) as we know it - Arabs particularly, and muslims in genral, tend to align themselves tribally (a concept we do not understand fully in the west) and do not recognise centralised authority the way we do, unless it is enforced upon them (a la Saddam). They also do not respect ANY show of weakness (the 'withdrawal' from Fallujah will be percieved in the Islamic world as such). You do not have to 'win' a battle / war in the eyes of Islam to be seen as a victor; if you merely 'stood up to' a superior force you are a hero - even if you well and truly had your @rse kicked.
I see all the anti-Bush / anti-coalition / anti semetic / anti Israel / pro-European / pro Piers Morgan and his filthy rag / pro 'let's tax the 'rich', hard working people of the world and give their hard earned money to lazy useless f*****s who have never lifted a finger to earn it' / Guardian readers / anti-globsalisation / 'one world, one tribe' / anti 'Racisim' (any white, christian, heterosexual man who speaks up for himself and his own nowadays seems to be slapped down as a racist / homophobe / bigot) / 'liberal' / 'new' enlightened wealth-guilty westerner ...............(in my experience, most of you naysayers and conspiracy theorists will fit into most of the above categories) has already jumped on this particular bandwagon with their 'modern', '21st century', 'enlightened', 'inclusive' views.
My response to these people is...........start from around November 2002; how would you have handled this problem???
This is a difficult situation. The Western world relies on Oil. It is our God. (anyone who thinks otherwise should remember that it only took a handful of Farmers / Truckers to blockade 3 refineries for a few days a couple of years ago and the country (uk) was brought to a virtual standstill).
The rights and wrongs of oil dependence can be debated until the cows come home, but it is a fact. We need oil, and it is not a simple 'attitude adjustment' to switch to a Hydrogen based economy (it takes a considerable amount of energy to electrolyse water to produce Hydrogen; the only way this can be achieved on the required scale would be much more widespread use of nuclear-generated electricity, if CO2 emission targets are to be met) I reaLLY WISH THE TREE-HUGGING BRIGADE WOULD MAKE THEIR MINDS UP ON THIS ISSUE! You don't get 'owt for 'nowt (yorkshire paraphrase of the laws of thermodynamics).
The upshot of all this is that we need the ME on side, at least politically. Muslims in general (and Arabs in particular) respect overt displays of strength and will not forgive displays of 'weakness'. If we apply our own narrow views of diplomacy, 'fairness' and our oh-so-precious concept of 'human rights' we will never earn any respect in the ME and any attempt to stabilise the region will be doomed to failure.
In all the disgust at the pictures that the media have managed to 'produce' over the last few days, consider this: if I had ever been shot down whilst on ops in the ME, and the worst I suffered was to be P****d on whilst some idiot took a photograph, I would have considered myself VERY fortunate indeed! We may think that we hold ourselves to higher standards, but the one thing this furore proves is that human nature is A: Universal; and B: Evil, no matter where you were born or what system we were brought up under. Those who argue 'moral high ground' will always lose because we are as human as 'they' are. There are only ever 2 sides in a conflict; there are no 'goodies' and 'baddies' - there are only winners and losers. No side ever believes that they are in the wrong or we would never fight. Bit deep and philosophical I admit, but I'm in that kind of mood right now I'm afraid!
I apologise if this had turned into a rant, but I havent ranted on here for a while!...........
**All spelling and grammatical errors are induced by recently restored abiility to make my own choices and get p****d if i so choose, having recently returned from sausage-side**
*** Sorry, PPP if my intro now seems irrelevant - started writing this post when original personal slanging match was still here - was intersted in discussion that had preceeded! need to type f a s t e r....!!***
Last edited by 16 blades; 2nd May 2004 at 07:38.