Second interview Transcript when Ted Lang was contacted to respond:
CO-COMPERE: Earlier this morning - in fact, just before the seven o'clock News, we spoke at some length with Dick Smith, who is the man who was the foundation member of the committee set up to oversee the introduction of a United States-style air space arrangement in this country, subject of a lot of controversy, a lot of claims that it is a disaster waiting to happen.
And in fact there have been near disasters as a result of its implementation, the Government backing away a little bit - but Dick Smith stoutly defending it, saying it was all a ploy by air traffic controllers to simply get more air traffic controllers, save their jobs and go back to the 1950s.
We'll suspend normal proceedings here because on the line we have Ted Lang, the National President of the Civil Air Traffic Controllers Association. Also on the other line listening in is Dick Smith himself, Ted. So, Ted, what say you to what Mr Smith has had to say this morning?
TED LANG: Good morning, John and Ross. You might notice there's a bit of timbre in my voice because I am so angry at the comments that Mr Smith made on your radio station this morning, actually questioning the integrity of air traffic controllers. It's a downright absolute disgrace. I guess it's come to panic modes for the Government that - well, the Minister's not out there talking but we've got a private individual defending the government policy.
I can't believe it. And what are they doing? They're actually now going the man, they're not even trying to defend a system that absolutely is not working. They're just going up against the people that are having the job of working it, the air traffic controllers. And I did note a hint there, reference to Air Services and he's actually bagging the people who have got the responsibility of bringing it in.
CO-COMPERE: Ted, he does back his comments with research. He says that there's been a 21% reduction in incidents from 1 January 2003 to 12 March 2003, there were 24 reported occurrences. From 1 January 2004 to 12 March 2004, corresponding period, one year later, 19 occurrences under the new system, a reduction of 21%.
TED LANG: He didn't see the intervening months - but, look, you can make damn lies and statistics, isn't it? I can give you figures that in the last month in all of our air safety incident reports that are reported electronically through our Air Services safety system, the 360 last month.
It was 330 the month before - 360's the highest number we've had since March last year. Since the implementation of this system, you would expect air safety incidents to be going down, and unfortunately there's a very disturbing trend that they're going up.
CO-COMPERE: All right, Ted, I must admit that I was a little astonished when I asked Dick Smith if there were any representatives of professional air traffic controllers or professional serving commercial airline pilots on the committee to talk about the introduction of this system. He said, "No." He said there was an Air Force representative there who has apparently had some commercial airline flying experience. He said the reason that they didn't do that was, well, basically they didn't want any argument.
TED LANG: Well, I think what he was also alluding to is that air traffic controllers are completely and utterly resistant to change. I think he's also forgetting that the TAAATS system we have in Australia now was a world first. Our air traffic controllers went where no other controller in the world has been. We've now got what's lauded as the best air traffic control system in the world.
And what's this man want to do? He wants to break it down. Fancy even suggesting that an air traffic controller could sit and watch two aircraft come together. But unfortunately the situation that happened at Maroochydore, that is exactly what they have to do. There is no way in the wide world that an air traffic controller can intervene in that circumstance. That Virgin aircraft, it was the pilot's responsibility to see the other aircraft. I know I'm going at a million miles an hour, I'm just so angry.
CO-COMPERE: All right, well, look, joining us on the other line now- -
TED LANG: Oh, by the way, I flatly refuse to be on the same program as him. I'm not answering any of his questions- -
CO-COMPERE: Why not, Ted?
TED LANG: - -the interview is over. I refuse to even talk to a bloke that could possibly suggest that a professional organisation such as Air Traffic Controllers, could do what he has suggested. It's obscene.
CO-COMPERE: All right, Ted, we'll respect that- -
TED LANG: Good on you, mate, cheers.
CO-COMPERE: - -no problems at all. We certainly weren't planning to ambush you, as I made- -
(Ted Lang terminates interview.)
CO-COMPERE: He's a very angry man.
CO-COMPERE: There goes Ted. Dick Smith's on the line. Good day, Dick.
DICK SMITH: Hi there, John and Ross, how are things?
CO-COMPERE: Well, fine for us, not for Ted Lang. He's a very very angry man.
DICK SMITH: No, one of the problems is, first of all, he said quite clearly there that there was nothing the air traffic controller could do. Well, that just simply means the air traffic controller hasn't been trained correctly. I believe we have the best air traffic controllers in the world, there's no doubt about that.
I do believe their association is running a campaign to undermine this system. Look, the sad thing for me is that in the United States the whole of that country benefits from this very efficient air space system. And what basically air traffic controllers are saying- -
CO-COMPERE: Yes, but it's chalk and cheese to compare Australia to the United States, for all sorts of reasons.
DICK SMITH: No- -
CO-COMPERE: Traffic density, weather conditions, topography.
CO-COMPERE: Not to mention the huge radar back-up system that operates in- -
DICK SMITH: - -the air space around Brisbane is identical to the air space around Los Angeles, but as Ted mentioned, our radar is better. We have the best radar of the lot, we have the best controllers. But what he's saying is that the air space which is used in LA, in JFK Airport, Washington DC, everywhere, cannot be used here. Now- -
CO-COMPERE: With respect, Dick, I know where I feel a hell of a lot safer flying.
DICK SMITH: The only thing is that if you look- -
CO-COMPERE: Until now.
DICK SMITH: - -at statistics, the US system is extremely safe. By the way, it's the same as the system - Qantas fly into Germany every day and they fly through what we call class C air space there. But the main point that he said, and it's interesting that he won't even discuss it with me - I find that that's what happens, they just won't discuss it, they are fundamentalists, that- -
CO-COMPERE: Well, because fundamentally if there's a prang they carry the can.
DICK SMITH: Absolutely, so the air space system has reduced the number of reportable incidents without any doubt. But let me just explain so everyone can understand this - because I think you did at the start, and that was that that Virgin plane is talking by law to air traffic controllers under the control of air traffic control.
The small plane is flying across, he has a radar transponder on, he was talking to an air traffic controller and he'd said he was climbing to 16,500 feet. Now the air traffic controller has an obligation to the Virgin plane not to descend it into the small plane.
And even though, I think they've been trained incorrectly because I rang the United States again and spoke to the Federal Aviation Authority and they said, "Dick, in those circumstances, we do it with Qantas every day, we do it with Virgin Atlantic every day, you just limit the descent of the airline until it's past the small plane." It is just commonsense. Now Ted Lang is saying they can't do that, so they've obviously been trained incorrectly.
CO-COMPERE: Somewhere, Dick, you have to get together, you blokes, because this is just a stalemate now.
DICK SMITH: Well, no it isn't because the air space is working excellently well but they're running a very busy- -
CO-COMPERE: You're saying it's not a stalemate because you've got your way?
DICK SMITH: No, because the air space is in and it's safer. The sad thing is what they're basically saying is the advantages which are used in America, which gets their costs down so they can compete with us - as you know I'm a very proud Australian - air traffic controllers are saying, "We can't use those advantages here." In other words, there's something different about our pilots, or something like that. That's not true.
Now let me just explain very quickly too - the reason the pilots and the air traffic controllers were not on that panel is there'd been 13 years of meetings and they say at these meetings, they just say, "We don't want the small planes in our air space. Rack off, we don't want you." It's utter selfishness. And when we say to the- -
CO-COMPERE: But surely intelligent people sitting around a table can come to a resolution - excluding people who are at the coalface is not a solution, Dick.
DICK SMITH: No, because- -
CO-COMPERE: I would suggest that's a public service ploy to push something through.
DICK SMITH: No, but there's no advantage, if you're an air traffic controller to have the small planes which don't pay. Now, there's a very big significance here. Air Services Australia, the air traffic control mob, is just a profit-making arm of the Government. It's whole aim is to make a profit. The small planes don't pay in the USA, they don't pay in Australia.
CO-COMPERE: So now you're saying the air traffic controllers are opposed to this because they want to help the Government make money. Come on, pull the other way, it yodels.
DICK SMITH: No, no, no, no, the bosses, all their bosses are on a percentage of the - can you imagine this - Air Services Australia is in charge of air space, but their bosses are all on a percentage of the profit they make. And so there's a total incentive on your pay at the end of every week not to have small planes getting a free service, to keep them out of the system or to make them file an instrument flight plan and pay. And so it's very much driven by money, not by the air traffic controllers, but by the bosses.
CO-COMPERE: Well, that's crook as well, and then the Government should intervene to stop that and there should be no money involved incentives in that regard because- -
DICK SMITH: - -absolutely agree. Once we do that, and by the way, the only way we can do that is by you at least covering it on air because the air traffic controllers - I fly regularly in the system - they are the best in the world. Obviously their training is deficient and the system of allowing the bosses to get a profit would mean that they don't want any small planes to be flying in their system at all because they lose money on small planes. And so they're basically trying to have an air space that keeps them out of giving us- -
CO-COMPERE: May I politely - and I say politely - make the suggestion that everyone get back around the table and have a talk about this because if there is an airline disaster in this country, heaven forbid, there's going to be a lot of people who are going to want the lot of 'youse goolies', if you pardon the very common expression.
DICK SMITH: I agree with you. OK, bye bye.
CO-COMPERE: Dick Smith, thank you, good on you
Always willing to see the other mans view aren't you Dick?
Media Release - Criminal claim angers controllers
Criminal claim angers controllers
Brisbane air traffic controllers today demanded Dick Smith apologise for describing two of their colleagues as “criminals” over the incident between a Virgin 737 and light aircraft on the Sunshine Coast last week.
The two controllers, one with more than 30 years’ experience, are shocked that they had been singled out in Dick Smith’s tirade of criticism on a Brisbane radio station earlier today.
Both controllers were monitoring the Virgin flight, however under the new rules could do nothing to prevent both aircraft closing to 400 feet when the Virgin pilots were unable to “see and avoid” the other plane. Light aircraft sharing commercial airspace no longer come under air traffic control.
Civil Air President Ted Lang, who spoke with controllers this morning, challenged Dick Smith to produce any evidence to substantiate his claims that controllers had deliberately “allowed” the Sunshine Coast incident to happen and were “risking people’s lives for an industrial agenda”.
“This is about airspace safety. There is absolutely no threat whatsoever to jobs in any shape or form and in fact, assessments have demonstrated the likelihood of a need for more controllers.
Dick Smith’s assertions are totally without foundation or evidence.”
Mr Lang said the controllers had taken the accusations “very personally” particularly because they did not have the right of reply, except through Civil Air, which had also been subject to Dick Smith’s outburst.
“Dick Smith is a former member of the Airspace Reform Group and in that role, there is a level of responsibility attached and a requirement to demonstrate measured reasoning.
“It would appear Dick Smith has become very frustrated that his airspace regime is facing mounting opposition from the professional aviation industry. If he can produce any valid data to show that NAS is safe for Australia, then we’ll be happy to listen.”
Mr Lang said controllers were not surprised Federal Transport Minister John Anderson had refused to break his holiday to sort out the wrangle.
Further information: Hamish McLean 0409 840823