I know what you mean D-B. I once took a Cherokee 180, four-up out of Nakuru (5,600ft?) and I swear the only reason we got out was that we all breathed in at Vr. Definitely "Learnt about flying" from that one. Mind you four-up with full tanks in a 172 at Denham (250ft) on a very hot Summer's day can be pushing the envelope.so perhaps I didn't learn my lesson fully.