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Old 30th November 2023 | 17:40
  #317 (permalink)  
PukinDog
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Joined: Sep 2011
: ATP+Mil
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From: USA
Originally Posted by BBK
Maybe it’s just worth recapping the time and conditions when this occurred. The ATIS at 0356Z gives FEW005, SCT007. Hardly CAVOK is it? Not sure I’d be able to see either the runway or another aircraft with that cloud reported.

One aspect not discussed much is human factors relating to fatigue. You have a long haul crew who have probably operated around 11-12 hours and for their body clock it’s around 05:00. The LH pilot sounds a little tetchy so perhaps that’s one reason and the other is the lack of accurate holding times which is the responsibility of ATC to provide. Also, I suspect that pilots who have never flown long haul do not appreciate that the skills you acquire when flying frequently are likely eroded especially when fatigued. We should be aiming for the highest level of safety that can be achieved. Not “well most pilots can do this so why can’t you?” Even the best operators can have their off days.

To read some of the comments you would think the LH crew requested some weird arcane procedure that meant they were to be treated like Air Force 1! Apparently vectors to an ILS, like you would expect anywhere else, is just too difficult. I’m not a frequent visitor to SFO but over the years I’ve had normally had vectors to an ILS. Sometimes a little sporting and generally ATC have been ok. They always ask “report when you’re visual with xxx aircraft” but when unable, because neither of us could see it then it hasn’t been an issue. Sorry PukinDog I have sometimes used “we’ve got ‘em on TCAS”. Mea culpa.

This is definitely not a rant against SFO ATC in general but I think this particular controller should have done better accommodating a reasonable request by the pilot. Lastly, SFO is a major international airport so it should have the flexibility to allow foreign operators to fly within a SOP that is quite reasonable. If it accepts aircraft on an IFR flight plan it should allow an instrument approach at the end of it.
There's a bit more than the conditions reported at the field that's required in order for SFO to use these Visual Approaches. There are weather minimums specific to the East quadrant for the inbound courses plus a separate ASOS located at appx 6 miles also with it's own mins that must be met for SFO to conduct the Visuals. The SFO ATIS will report Few or Scattered no matter the quadrant it's observed, but if the Visuals are in use the weather out along the approach paths meets the criteria for being clear. They won't require anyone to fly through few or scattered clouds or when the vis is too low to see what you need to see when you need to see it.

These are the airport's preferred approaches when the weather is VMC, so they've set them up pretty well for use with the special weather mins and remote reporting station. That, combined with the electronic guidance that must be tuned and tracked that's depicted on the Procedures' Charts which, if followed as cleared, establishes and maintains the separations between the paired aircraft, ATC speed control for in-trail spacing and hi/low vertical separation. Compared to most, there's actually very little that's "visual" about them.

The LH guys didn't have a choice, which is too bad because they fly these SFO Visuals all the time during daylight when weather permits. They're very familiar with them. So familiar that the greatest risk probably isn't proficiency, but complacency.

Mea Culpas can't be fined retroactively so no worries. I've never met a pilot who wasn't guilty of something, myself included, and not sure I'd even want to.
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