Originally Posted by
simon001
JimEli, you make a valid point. Based upon his qualifications, training and experience, I felt that spatial disorientation was unlikely. But I really don't know of course and the final moments of flight do point to a loss of control.
SASless, I'm going to pass on responding to your questions about airspace. I was not suggesting that the pilot was out of compliance with the FARs, if that's where you were going. Let's assume that he was in compliance, all the way up to where he left Van Nuys' airspace. Which is where I disagree with you:
The FARs do not differentiate between intentional or otherwise. The FARs specify that a pilot must fly under VFR until cleared by ATC to fly under IFR. The only intention the pilot declared was to climb to 4000. He was asked multiple times whether he was VFR. He confirmed VFR. VFR into IMC, intentionally or otherwise, is bad. And yes, it is a violation. If ATC asks you and you admit it, they will declare an emergency on your behalf immediately. If you live, you get to copy down a number when you land. I know because I've been there. And in the pilot's case, he could not have received a pop up clearance from ATC because he was below the MDA shelf for that area. The pilot, with his experience, would have known that.
I suspect he decided to climb through the marine layer to get on top. He almost made it. Almost.
My main point here is that a VFR flight from SNA to CMA that day was going to be marginal AT BEST and the pilot would have known that before departure.
gulliBell, I am fixed wing only so your comment about 76 pilots crashing within 20 seconds of going IMC on the sim was an eye opener.
Simon#1; the CFR treat helicopters quite differently to fixed wing in a couple of ways. Have a good read of 14 CFR Part 91.119 and 91.155.
In simple terms, VFR in a chopper permits flight in a visibility that is similar to minima on a lot of instrument approaches. 1/2 mile is not VFR in a 777, it is acceptable for a helo. In class G airspace, that is the basic limit for the helo, in control airspace, SVFR would apply.
For flight altitude, the chopper can be operated at essentially any altitude if the operation does not endanger 3rd party persons or property. If the pilot can argue he did not pose a risk to life or limb outside of their own copter, then they are compliant. Your friendly FSDO FOI may beg to differ, but it is pretty much a statement of the law, beauty being in the eye of the beholder. If you break anyone or anything outside, then you would probably run into non compliance with this rule.
Choppers are quite different to fixed wing, and the FAA in particular has rules that permit helicopters to be operated with acknowledgement of the unique requirements.