Old 3rd Feb 2019, 12:28
  #992 (permalink)  
TRUTHSEEKER1
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: LONDON
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by Sir Niall Dementia View Post
Thruthseeker;

You are right in a lot of areas.

I was 15 when Neil Williams died, he and my grandfather were well acquainted, Gramps always reckoned Neil was an outstanding pilot and good bloke with a poor grasp of risk. They had both been through ETPS at different times, and from what I saw regularly argued about pushing limits, but even Gramps was very shocked by what happened. As you say, accidents happen, I've had one, fortunately caused by multiple mechanical failures.

Go back through this thread. Look at "common purpose", There was no "common purpose"

This was an N registered aircraft, it should not have been doing what it was doing and DI should not have been flying it on that task or in those conditions. If there was no reward there was no pressure to fly outside his qualifications and ability, because if there was no reward it was being flown for pleasure and experience, therefore no pressure to get to Cardiff that night at all.

And it may not be the paperwork that makes the person, BUT the paperwork can at least help protect the innocent, and the AOC training standards are laid down, you either meet them or you fail.

Two men have died utterly unnecessarily, two families are suffering as a result, but the final decision to fly always rests with the pilot, be he 100 hr ppl or 20 000hr ATPL TRE/IRE, and taking off knowing that the weather is beyond your limits, or you are out of currency, or you are unfamiliar with the aircraft, or you're being pressured because its not a jolly, but a planned, paid charter is not accidental, it is a decision not taken lightly, but usually with due consideration. When that decision is made it is not an accident, it may have been pressured, but it is still the decision of the pilot in command, and his ultimate responsibility. DI will have known the status of his qualifications, and recency, he posted about it on facebook, he will have known how happy he was in the aircraft and how confident he was with it. No matter what threats, cajoling, or promises came from either the McKays or D Henderson he could have said no.

SND
Now, I am worried because I am the same age as you. As a daft 14yr (nearly 15) I had the privilege to fly with Neil Williams a couple of times in a Twin Turboprop & a Biplane. I am only worried that someone my age uses the moniker 'SND'

I am not sure Common Purpose comes into play if DI wasn't being paid? surely it is ' just a jolly ' if someone agrees to fly an aeroplane & a passenger gets onboard?
Now, whilst I agree that if the flight falls into the ' Jolly ' category it should be the pilot in command's decision as to whether he fly's or not? ( in a perfect world that happens, but in the real world other factors come into play. )
I have in my early flying years used the " Do you fancy a weekend in 'XYZ' ? " line myself with the intent on being back by Sunday evening or even stretched it to the early doors on the Monday, if the weather turns out different to what was forecast I have been pressured by having a buddy along who needs to be back for work on the Monday to push it and depart to get them home so they don't get fired by their bosses. ( Get-homeitis has bitten quite a few ).

An AOC is granted to a company so there are strict regulations on the company attached to the AOC, the company has a duty of care to ensure their pilots are of a certain standard, some excel in finding pilots of that calibre & some settle for a lesser standard than is really needed. Yes having an AOC to fall back will be a bonus but it doesn't mean all the pilots are actually safer than the non AOC pilot who has a multitude of hours.

I agree 2 persons have died in a very sad & avoidable accident, I still maintain that DI didn't go into this with a deathwish, he undoubtably went into this under immense pressure to get Sala to Cardiff & I am sure he really did believe both sectors were to be flown within daylight hours, the fatal mistake on his behalf was to accept to fly in worsening conditions at night.

Dave Ibbotson's qualifications at the time of the accident were as below, which does show he was daylight only cleared..... Dave Henderson would I imagine have been aware of this so it would be illegal to ask as the organiser of the flight for a Daytime only pilot to fly at night, I suspect that the Night Flight part was sprung on him while he was in Nantes which then changed the gameplan somewhat !!! Supposition is that DI wouldn't have wanted to fly back at night & probably voiced that opinion to the organisers, I can only surmise that because DI was cashstrapped he was unable to ditch the trip & buy an Air ticket home, I wouldn't be surprised if the organisers said " Your only way home is sitting on the apron at Nantes, get onboard & get our client here "

All supposition but highly likely to be the way things went.

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