Jet dives...
M squared:
Glad to have Irish Sea/sub incident corroborated, and naturally procedures were revised and must have been improved.
Notwithstanding, consider the scenario: It can have hardly been a revelation that trawlers were operating in this relatively small area - they didn't just appear one day. Plus, methods of fishing ops - details of the trawl methods etc. were also known. Thus, lack of due diligence on the part of the sub is, at the least, a valid charge.
Whether or not US and UK sub ops were at that time co-located, never mind anyone else, word unofficially (naturally since the accident was buried) is that it was RN. Somebody knows - SOSUS facility at RAF Brawdy - would have tracked this.
In any case, the operative descriptor is 'accident'. I don't believe even the US haters would venture to suggest that these, or any other incidents (aircraft, to get back to the thread), were intentional.
I take exception with the US military being unprofessional, under-trained,trigger happy etc. etc.
F.I.D.O.
There are bad seeds in every outfit, and bad things can happen to good folks, never mind fate in the form of bad luck. If you look at such incidents statistically, of course the US is going to have more such incidents/accidents attributed - they are so much the larger presence. In a previous incarnation and a few years prior to the Italian cablecar disaster, my outfit had a couple of weeks of ops in those mountains on exchange. Given the existing terrain, and that whilst adhering to the rules, it's no surprise that it happened. The crew responsible were not cowboys as even a cursory review of the investigation will show. The fact that the map was not so marked became the lynchpin, but as anyone who has done this type of flying can attest, this was of little consequence other than in the evidentiary/legal setting. Nonetheless, they were made sacrificial lambs due in part to the pressure exerted within Italy and in their parliament.. A few years before I was in, a UK fast jet hit power cables across a fjord- successfully ejected, but did not survive in the water due to a 'modified'goon suit. Then too, whatever military you are with, you'd be a damn fool to expect top cover. On my out fit we lost an ac and crew in low flying training- hit the top of a hill in the LFS (UK)- and, though lightly populated , nearly took out a farm. I'm damn sure had this been a 'foreign crew' - Belgique, Canuck ,USAFE or such, the same asinine bulls*it would have been vented in a forum like this, where one presumes people have a degree of knowledge or experience greater than John Q. Civvie. In this case, a comprehensive reconstruction was undertaken using the same time of day,weather conditions etc. and a definitive finding reached- visual illusion, and the crew posthumously exonerated.
I think a major part of the problem in such topics, is unqualified people running their mouths; the remainder is the folks who have a visceral and illogical dislike for all things american (could it stem from envy?), though some of them dress up their observations with camouflage such as 'I have some good american friends' etc. Like saying 'one of my best friends is jewish/black/hispanic/gay blah blah blah.
As of this posting the UN presence in Iraq, limited as it is, continues to be drawn down, and further sneak attacks continue on Coalition Forces. Apparently some of us here are of the opinion that the average US grunt should be proferring Hershey bars instead of M16 rounds in the face of provocation- and I'm sure the average British squaddie recognises that for the arrant nonsense it is.
Uh... here's another one.
What about the blu on blu F4 v Jag shootdown in taceval flying in RAFG? Was this 'their finest hour' ?
It was an accident, the chain of events reading like a classic accident reconstruction, which fortunately didn't result in any fatalities and occasioned some excellent jokes and banter for years afterward, though I'm not sure das volk were similarly amused.
Uh... here's another one.
What about the blu on blu F4 v Jag shootdown in taceval flying in RAFG? Was this 'their finest hour' ?
It was an accident, the chain of events reading like a classic accident reconstruction, which fortunately didn't result in any fatalities and occasioned some excellent jokes and banter for years afterward, though I'm not sure das volk were similarly amused.