Originally Posted by
LandSafe
My post
+ it is serious!
+ it gives you many details, even background info
+ I am actually flying there as expat
+ I am curious about any "source" and I evaluate them carefully, if I had not the same experienced in several times
+ I am outside of Turkey in order to write what I think (no censorship)
To start, I am non English and my language skills aren`t best.
I am a person for whom respect is a major item, and who accepts other person thinking is different.
If my words might compromise somebody, I appologize in advance because any negative meanings could arise from my language knowledge or cultural differences.
@Survived
I fully comply with your posts, since all items could be true as pilot actually flying in THY.
- "Avoid THY, if you can." - my advise is the same!
- "Former colleague told me about, how many expats ran away" - fully true, in my fleet (A330) I think it is around 50% or more
- "Highly unstable conditions, anywhere" - I feel the same.
- "Good luck for everybody beeing there and trying to escape" - Thank you, I am using this luck daily ...
@Skipping
It seams, you had joined a while ago, when there had been better times. I believe (unable to confirm) that you were B777, the nicest fleet.
I try to include the original post of Survived into your numbering sequence to make understanding easier for others
1) Survied: "personal life - no matter what you do, you could be taken to prison for no reason"
Skipping: "Theoretically yes, anybody can be taken to prison in Turkey. OK, this is crazy, but in reality only politically active people are affected.
me: The reality IS, THAT ANYBODY HAVING POWER (police man, security personnel, military, secret service) CAN TAKE YOU WHEREEVER YOU ARE WHATEVER YOU DO.
They might interprete something is politcal and you are gone, no human rights any more. Writing this would be enough that your family does not hear anymore from you.
If they think, what you write, what you say in public, what you say next to your mobile (just battery in, not on), or by calling, if they judge it is political, than they can take you. end of story.
There is no difference at all to Hitler`s SS. Even you can see much more similarities from this actual State to former Germany.
2) Survived: "smartphones are under surveillance, police can check you phone"
Skippping: "Smartphones are not under surveillance, unless see #1"
me: "They" simply monitor your mobile, to find out, if you are political or not. Who knows, why "they" decide you are politcal. But "they" monitor...
Plus, what I find even more embarassing. Policeman DID take the smartphone, when you are arriving by public street at the gate to the airport and they checked several apps!
3)Survived: "company withdrew salary increase, but costs continously increasing"
Skippping: "Costs are actually decreasing - the hotels got cheaper. No salary increase of 1% - that's true - however it will be done retroactively if the company starts making profit again"
me: MY costs: When I go to the supermarket, I pay approx 20% more than last year, same time TL dropped by 33%, and my salary increase was 4%.
I paid in Titanic hotel for an additional single room approx. 140TL, today it is 175TL. Mobile costs raised from 45TL to 70TL doing the same as before, etc. etc. etc.
I am only 95% sure, but the salary rise for 1st JAN 2017 was 4% plus inflation, and another 3% plus inflation for 1st Jul 2017.
Predicted Inflation for 2017 is 10,1% (just checked)
Both increases are gone, we are talking about 27% for 2017!!
These 27% given back to us, only maybe, if you trust them AND THY make ?100 million USD profit (cannot remember the amount)...
And if you are NOT a Union member, THY takes 2% out of your salary! There is NO Contract for this, but they do.
When I claimed for the 2% they just said, it was agreed with the new Union Contract, but not saying which paragraph or whatever,
and what makes me angry most, they just cut the salary without telling you. This leads to a very untrustful situation, so you check
always the salary, but there are too many unknowns, so you end up in a big "?".
Also they cut the per-diems. Before the new Union-Contract it was protated payment for the day you left IST and you came back to IST. They days in between they paid full.
Now it is, that they pay only the days, when you have complete 24h. But do not ask me, what time counts. If it is UTC, or Local IST, or Local Destination time, I do not know,
and you do not get, as non Turkish speaker, the rules where it says what.
Last point is a typical item for THY... (later see rasist behaviour)
4) Survived: "Turkish Lira dropped within a year by 1/3"
Skippping: "Sadly true."
me: correct, regarding last 6 months. Here is the timeline: today 1€=4TL, 2016 1€=3TL, 2013 1€=2.2TL
Depending on the future behaviour of "him" TL might fall BELOW 1€=5TL !
5) Survived: "Silly company rules urge expats to be longer in IST than they need"
Skippping:"No company rules against expats: it may seem so, but in reality there seems to be some confrontation between the flight ops and crew planning so all the pilots are affected, not only expats"
me: both correct: The rules simply affects expats mosts, because they are not home in IST area.
The rules says, you have to be in IST area 12hours before your duty, which is 13.5hrs(wide-body) or 13hrs(narrow-body).
That means, come 2days earlier if you have a flight starting just after midnight, which most long-haul flights do.
The first plane landing IST from Europe in most (not all) cases lands just before noon.
There is not enough time to be on duty for the flight departing after midnight.
6) Survived: "FO`s are even behind PUR in case of ID tickets"
Skippping: "FO's and PUR are same level of priority, so if the PUR is more senior, then yes, she goes first"
me: both correct. And there was an email from fleetmanagment, that FO should take business seat on deadhead flights, if space available,
but since fleetmanagement has no power in THY, nobody resepects this email, with the result, that there could be an empty business class,
but the FO would fly the 13h from KIX to IST in the ECO.
Maybe you would say, the FO could ask CPT or PUR for the "internal" upgrade. Forget it!!!
If the CPT is TUR, then he says NO. If the CPT is expat, depending on his experience and attitude, he might say YES, but the PUR says NO
and threats the CPT to write a report (which he/she would do anyhow, because the CPT broke a rule)
Of course the CPT is the final authority, but if he does, he goes for a coffee in fleetmanagment....
I did it once, against the will of the PUR, she reported me, I had the coffee and now I have a warning in my file.
7) Survived: "- due to increasing cargo flights, deadheading increasing a lot and most times CPT/FO ends up flying up to 12h in ECO"
Skippping: "Can't say anything"
me: I can say a lot, and this is true and a very bad item:
Roughly 10% of A330 are Cargo Aircrafts. The number will increase, also B777 will get CARGO.
According to THY Cargo, a Cargo A/C makes 4times the money of a PAX A/C.
More and more flights we go somewhere deadhead (ecerywhere around the world) and takeover the CARGO A/C to bring it to IST or vice versa.
Many times the Business Class is full, nowadays worse than before, since THY started to sell Business Class seats last minutes at the counter
to a reasonable price compared to booking price.
This results, that all Captains and FO end up in ECO seats. Since the Crewplanning is responsible for the reservation of the seat, they do last minute,
and you get a ****ty seat somewhere in the middle of the ECO class. You will fly the full time there, going inside in uniform.
Since many PAX use THY with IST as hub, they continue and your neighbours or pax behind/infront are 24+ hours travelling resulting in a lack of patience.
With all the different negative behaviour you will arrive highly exhausted at your destination.
In old flightdutytime rules, deadhead did not count as flightdutytime, so you could go somewhere you travel roughly 1h to the hotel
and you have not even 8hrs to sleep. (I did IST-BKK = 10+1.5h in the A/C, 1h to hotel 7.5hrs in the room, less than 6hrs sleep, 1h to the airport,
2hrs (!) until ready for Cargoflight, then time to IST was 16hrs due to intermediate landing, which we always have.
8) Survived:"A/Cs are on ground due to missing pilots, not due to economical situation"
Skippping: "There's no pilot shortage (yet). Definitely no flights cancelations due to pilot shortage. If that was the case I'm sure the conditions would have been improved already and the crew planning issue were also already solved. Too many pilots now - so supply vs demand is at work."
me: Oh YES, there is a shortage and A/C are on GND due to missing pilots and I believe missing 330 pilots.
I cannot proof this, but there are 3 major facts:
1. THY has started recruiting 330-FOs a few days ago, check yourself!
2. Many P3 (Senior-FO) and P4 (Type qualifed FO being able to fly with new CPTs) have resigned or are going to resign soon, applying outside of Turkey - this is what these colleagues told me.
3. Ask any TUR CPT or FO to have the newspaper of 2nd MAY - Economical Chapter - I am sure, that most time they can help you.
This is my understanding of a translation by a TUR Cpt:
Many A/C are on ground since THY has a massive lack of pilots. More than 100 TUR pilots had resigned.
The remaining expat pilots could be happy to work in THY, since they do not meet the high standards of their home country.
I forgot the name of the newspaper, also it did not mention the numbers of expats, who left THY.
9) Survived: "most times no salary in case of sickness"
Skippping: no reply
me: Easy example: You have a cold, you will pay the doctor at home, the medicine, have in most time a deduction of 100% of days missing on your salary plus the flightpay.
There is a rule, that for sickness of 1 or 2 days, your are fully paid. This is partially correct, but to make everybody aware of the THY procedures, and the UNION agreed (!) changes, get the following in your mind:
Roster: day1:IST-JNB, day2:rest, day3:JNB-CPT-JNB, day4: rest, day5: JNB-MPM-JNB, day6/7: JNB-IST
but you fly: day1:Sick, day2:IST-ESB-IST, day3:IST-AYT-IST-BJV-IST, day4:IST-LHR-IST, day5:IST-MAD-IST, day6:IST-KBP-IST, day7:IST-TXL-IST
deduction of base salary: NIL
deduction of flight pay (which is 40% of all salary) days2-7 equals approx. 19h of 72h paid = deduction more than 1/4!
Result: You get the initial flights of these 6days deducted, even that you have WORKED! This is THY and this is the UNION of THY!
and remember: Everytime you get a deduction it will be more, than what you would earn, when you fly!
Also, Health insurance is NOT paying at your home, except in case of live-threating events. All other costs are on you.
10) Survived: "highly rasist airline, any department, anywhere: locals will get all benefits, expats doing the"
Skippping: "The last point is completely incorrect. There's absolutely no discrimination against expats in my experience.
The case being there are a lot of cultural differences that create a lot of misunderstandings, so some of us may take it personally and feel like they are being
mistreated / discriminated, where in reality its just a matter of perception."
me: Well, I have seen many different cultures, almost every culture is different than my own. I am aware of this.
What is rasist? My understanding of rasist is:
- Locals get the good flights (summertime to US, wintertime to SouthAfrica) , Expats gets the unnice destinations (US in wintertime, Mauritius in Rain Season)
I call this rasists, because the decision, which pilot is going where is based on being local or not
- 99% of TUR reply on emails to all by speaking TUR, but they are able to speak English, at least a few words could counteract rasism
- a fleetmagazine where 1/3 of the content is not translated into English, although the content is relevant for work and not aiming of any TUR relation
- staff in majority is unable to communicate in English, although they deal with expats day by day
- managment is pure TUR
- majority of old CPTs (even 1/3 of young CPTs) treat expats rough and unpleasant, even if they are able to communicate in English
- mostly if you are with 2 TUR CPT/FO in COC, they speak TUR in case you do not heavily insist to speak English. In case you are nice, they continue in TUR.
- many other benefits you get much more easily, or at all, if you are local
And all of this is THY!
Other:
Skippping: "When things pick up again and THY needs pilots for sure just raising the salary and giving more days off will do the trick to get a new bunch of willing expats."
me: If you check the new advertising for A330 FOs, there is no change at all.
But I remember, still they - I call it "stole" 27% of our salary.
Financial Situation is not as bad as they want us to believe.
@Miki380
Well, it seams you experienced nice years, as I did at the beginning. It is for sure not the same company as the old times ...
RE1:
- "TL was always going down" ... salary rises did not compansate that, and within the last year it dropped by 1/3 !!! And NO salary rise any more !
Question: Comparing to the rate at your beginning, how much is the salary loss with actual rate in %?
RE2 - advantages:
1) "you are close ( 2h ) from most European destinations" - 2h means only Eastern and partly Southern Europe
2) "salary is after tax nad not bad comparing to other european operators" - well comparing to those where FO pay for flying and a few more, YES!
Comparing NET and in EUR, the majority is not an advantage!
3) "they pay the pension insurance" - what is a pension insurance worth, if you do NOT get the payment, which is the case for 95% of expats.
With the new law (maybe 1.5 years old) you have to fulfill several items, one of them is to have pension payments into TURKISH pension for 7000 days,
which is just less than 20years...
4) "always upgrade to bussiness class without asking" - you speak only for a CPT, which I confirm is many times the case but never "always",
and sometimes you fight with stupid 18 year old groundstaff since they want to upgrade regular ECO pax, when ECO is overbooked, ignoring
the procedure, or other stupid items, which are ignoring this procedure.
5) "normally you get block OFF requested ( not always )" - once upon a time, I confirm this, but since 2 years, forget it - not only 330 fleet!
Remember : Expats are not able to use the "Crewish" and cannot request, only send an email to the contact-fleetmanagement-CPT of the fleet,
who then might forward this email to Crewplanning, with the result (which I can proof) that you get an outcome completey OPPOSIT to your request.
6) "...well organized company" - for sure not, we have been in 2 different companies - according to my experience !
7) "good technical support" - not from my point of view: they clear the TechLog ignoring the leak of the HYD for FWD Gear, and ..., and ...
P.S.:
All my mentioned facts or words are my experience and best of my knowledge.
The reason why I did not leave yet is simply, that I am on a 2nd part time of 3 months.
There are several posts within my writing time of 8hrs on which I could not reply.
Being open minded for any kind of reply...