Dutch Ryanair pilot loses court case vs tax man: not deemed self-employed
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I was once told by an old hand in the contracting game that (when i asked him why he didn't get a full time job with one of the airline) its all about the tax and not paying it, he was living in Malta but would never work for one company more than 12 months and never in the same country, Spain one year,Canada for a winter contract, the far east, China, South America, Africa and on went the list, he claimed to be self employed, but wasn't officially living anywhere, always paid all his bills in cash, no mortgage, no loans even his €300'000.00 motor yacht paid for in cash, i asked about what he did for media care, he would fly back to the UK and walking into a walk in centre, with his British passport, staying with friends no fix abode, down on my luck.....the down side? well he said sometime you have to fly junk that Europe would scrap, ignore duty hours, upside didn't have to worry about security screening and disclosure Scotland or 8 hours bottle to throttle rules, i guess its just a different mindset,
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ExDubai,
It is not a theory. A couple of years ago I hired a very well respected Law firm to find out what the legislation is regarding pilots whi are " self employed".
I suggest anyone who is in a situation where Tax predators want your skin do the same and attack the taxman if they want your hard earned money.
Contractors are victims, not criminals. And it is typical for the spineless Pilot community to side with those wanting to hurt our colleagues.
It is not a theory. A couple of years ago I hired a very well respected Law firm to find out what the legislation is regarding pilots whi are " self employed".
I suggest anyone who is in a situation where Tax predators want your skin do the same and attack the taxman if they want your hard earned money.
Contractors are victims, not criminals. And it is typical for the spineless Pilot community to side with those wanting to hurt our colleagues.
And those numbers are not peanuts
Last edited by ExDubai; 4th Mar 2017 at 00:17.
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The pilot IS NOT RESPONSIBLE AT ALL in case of False Selfe Employment according to EU legislation.
It is ALWAYS the EMPLOYER who is guilty of employing an employee under false self-employment pretention.
Hence, in the Netherlands, the EMPLOYER, NOT the employee is responsible to pay not only all taxes, social security to the State, but also ALL normally received bonusses, holiday payments, sick payments etc to the pilot.
It is NOT the Pilots who are in trouble for they are victims, it is RYANAIR who is deemed guilty.
It is ALWAYS the EMPLOYER who is guilty of employing an employee under false self-employment pretention.
Hence, in the Netherlands, the EMPLOYER, NOT the employee is responsible to pay not only all taxes, social security to the State, but also ALL normally received bonusses, holiday payments, sick payments etc to the pilot.
It is NOT the Pilots who are in trouble for they are victims, it is RYANAIR who is deemed guilty.
If you file as a contractor (so basically as a business) you pay vastly different taxes and have other perks and duties than when you apply as a "normal" employed person.
So when the court decides you are in fact not a contractor, and you filed your taxes that way, you must now file the correct tax forms probably resulting in having to pay back taxes and possibly a fine for filing too late or even for filing incorrectly.
That will not bring you in trouble with the law, but it might cost a lot of money, and owing money to the Dutch tax/state can cause trouble.
That will not bring you in trouble with the law, but it might cost a lot of money, and owing money to the Dutch tax/state can cause trouble.
Boris Becker, Uli Hoeness, Alice Schwarzer, Klaus Zumwinkel, Paul Schockemöhle, Peter Graf (Father of Tennis Pro Steffi, 3 years prison) to name some prominent individuals.
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Once again,
It is the EMPLOYER, the one who made up the illegal work relation who is WHOLLY responsible.
ALL taxes have to be payed by the employer as the employee acted according to the information he got from his employer regarding tax .
This means all bonusses, thirteenth month, etc etc. must be payed by the employer directly to the employee.
Also, the employee is NOT deemed responsible for knowing legistlation, it is the employer who is responsible for the legality of the contract. This voids all claims like " you had a choice not to sign this illegal contract" etc...
The employee is NEVER financially responsible.
I do not give a toss about what some guy in Germany thinks, they have to abide by the EU law, anybody made victim by an overzealous tax penlicker should fight this to death obviously.
As a sidenote, it is our responsibility to our financial wellbeing to avoid payment of taxes as much as legally possible. It is your duty to find the best way to minimize tax. It is called financial responsibility.
It is the EMPLOYER, the one who made up the illegal work relation who is WHOLLY responsible.
ALL taxes have to be payed by the employer as the employee acted according to the information he got from his employer regarding tax .
This means all bonusses, thirteenth month, etc etc. must be payed by the employer directly to the employee.
Also, the employee is NOT deemed responsible for knowing legistlation, it is the employer who is responsible for the legality of the contract. This voids all claims like " you had a choice not to sign this illegal contract" etc...
The employee is NEVER financially responsible.
I do not give a toss about what some guy in Germany thinks, they have to abide by the EU law, anybody made victim by an overzealous tax penlicker should fight this to death obviously.
As a sidenote, it is our responsibility to our financial wellbeing to avoid payment of taxes as much as legally possible. It is your duty to find the best way to minimize tax. It is called financial responsibility.
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This is so untrue, in Italy the fiscal responsability is strictly personal, and the ignorance of the law is in no way an excuse, especially when you are gaining advantage out of it.
Ignorantia juris non excusat.
Ignorantia juris non excusat.
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Once again,
It is the EMPLOYER, the one who made up the illegal work relation who is WHOLLY responsible.
ALL taxes have to be payed by the employer as the employee acted according to the information he got from his employer regarding tax .
This means all bonusses, thirteenth month, etc etc. must be payed by the employer directly to the employee.
Also, the employee is NOT deemed responsible for knowing legistlation, it is the employer who is responsible for the legality of the contract. This voids all claims like " you had a choice not to sign this illegal contract" etc...
The employee is NEVER financially responsible.
I do not give a toss about what some guy in Germany thinks, they have to abide by the EU law, anybody made victim by an overzealous tax penlicker should fight this to death obviously.
As a sidenote, it is our responsibility to our financial wellbeing to avoid payment of taxes as much as legally possible. It is your duty to find the best way to minimize tax. It is called financial responsibility.
It is the EMPLOYER, the one who made up the illegal work relation who is WHOLLY responsible.
ALL taxes have to be payed by the employer as the employee acted according to the information he got from his employer regarding tax .
This means all bonusses, thirteenth month, etc etc. must be payed by the employer directly to the employee.
Also, the employee is NOT deemed responsible for knowing legistlation, it is the employer who is responsible for the legality of the contract. This voids all claims like " you had a choice not to sign this illegal contract" etc...
The employee is NEVER financially responsible.
I do not give a toss about what some guy in Germany thinks, they have to abide by the EU law, anybody made victim by an overzealous tax penlicker should fight this to death obviously.
As a sidenote, it is our responsibility to our financial wellbeing to avoid payment of taxes as much as legally possible. It is your duty to find the best way to minimize tax. It is called financial responsibility.
The employee is NEVER financially responsible.
I do not give a toss about what some guy in Germany thinks, they have to abide by the EU law,
I do not give a toss about what some guy in Germany thinks, they have to abide by the EU law,
Let me point out, as a citizen and resident of NL, that every single individual is PERSONALLY responsible for your own tax payments. No excuses, no exeptions, nothing.
Of course you can have others (such as tax experts) fill it in for you, but still, your own bloody responsibility.
If you discover, as an employee, that your employer is evading tax payments: point it out.
Of course, in this particular case, this would have meant that RYR would terminate your contract, and this dutch RYR pilot would have been without a job. So be it.
The Netherlands has a very efficient tax system. There is NO CHANCE that anyone, or any company such as Ryanair, could ever expect to be able to beat the tax system.
This isn't Greece, or Albania.
The only reason why Ryanair was not held accountable by the judge in this case, is because Ryanair was officially not a party in these civil proceedings.
So: SUE RYR. It is the only option. Hold them accountable.
Of course you can have others (such as tax experts) fill it in for you, but still, your own bloody responsibility.
If you discover, as an employee, that your employer is evading tax payments: point it out.
Of course, in this particular case, this would have meant that RYR would terminate your contract, and this dutch RYR pilot would have been without a job. So be it.
The Netherlands has a very efficient tax system. There is NO CHANCE that anyone, or any company such as Ryanair, could ever expect to be able to beat the tax system.
This isn't Greece, or Albania.
The only reason why Ryanair was not held accountable by the judge in this case, is because Ryanair was officially not a party in these civil proceedings.
So: SUE RYR. It is the only option. Hold them accountable.
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RAT 5 - it is always easy to take things out of context if you only quote part of a sentence. I am well aware what the issue is. But I was responding to the rather dubious notion that the poor pilot is always a victim.
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"IR35 doesn’t apply if you work for a client through a Managed Service Company (MSC) or agency, for example an employment agency."
"Using an agency or MSC to provide a service to a client
There’s different legislation to follow if you provide services to an employer or end client through a third party agency or MSC.
You have to comply with agency legislation rather than IR35 if you provide services to an employer through a third party agency and technically, you’re not a direct employee of either.
If the agency is based outside the UK the client may be liable to operate PAYE and make the appropriate deductions, returns and payments of tax and National Insurance contributions instead.
You need to follow MSC legislation rather than IR35 if you provide your services to end clients through an intermediary company which is controlled and run by a third party service provider."
Sounds like the case?
"Using an agency or MSC to provide a service to a client
There’s different legislation to follow if you provide services to an employer or end client through a third party agency or MSC.
You have to comply with agency legislation rather than IR35 if you provide services to an employer through a third party agency and technically, you’re not a direct employee of either.
If the agency is based outside the UK the client may be liable to operate PAYE and make the appropriate deductions, returns and payments of tax and National Insurance contributions instead.
You need to follow MSC legislation rather than IR35 if you provide your services to end clients through an intermediary company which is controlled and run by a third party service provider."
Sounds like the case?
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Yes I quoted UK law ad there was a suggestion that HMRC would come out guns blazing which is not the case, they don't care, as for other states, that's another issue. Even the Dutch guys at NAS are trying to claim back taxes in NL for training costs etc so we shouldn't be surprised
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Just another contract of that agency revenued EUR15,600.00 per annum per Captain and EUR10,800.00 per First Officer and these were typical of industry rates, on the other hand hand Ryanair dictated an agency rate of EUR8.00 per block hour per Captain and EUR5.00 per First Officer thus based on an absolute maximum of 900 hours per annum then just EUR7,200.00 per Captain and EUR4,500.00 per First Officer per annum ... not worth entertaining unless in volume!
After all they don't provide a single unit of output to the economy except providing a shield to some of the responsibilities when hiring staff.
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That is a very simple question to answer.
They allow the employer to avoid NIC in the U.K.
This alone makes it an efficient method of employment. There are also other advantages.
The whole tax avoidance system needs to be closed ASAP!
They allow the employer to avoid NIC in the U.K.
This alone makes it an efficient method of employment. There are also other advantages.
The whole tax avoidance system needs to be closed ASAP!
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for the life of me why the likes of BA dont tap up a UK FR driver and offer them a job, cast iron guarantee, with the premise of said person taking fr to court (just like uber and plimico plumbers have recently lost...)
i mean ba are having to keep up with the loco world with an un-even playing field, they cannot win that unless they get dirty themselves...and by getting dirty i dont mean resorting to selling m&s food on board..!
i mean ba are having to keep up with the loco world with an un-even playing field, they cannot win that unless they get dirty themselves...and by getting dirty i dont mean resorting to selling m&s food on board..!
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Yes I quoted UK law ad there was a suggestion that HMRC would come out guns blazing which is not the case, they don't care, as for other states, that's another issue. Even the Dutch guys at NAS are trying to claim back taxes in NL for training costs etc so we shouldn't be surprised
The tax laws are arcane and fundamentally different in each European country and their approach is different again to other countries. IR35 put the onus on the contractor to pay all the national insurance and 'employer' taxes as HMRC considered the contractor was the one 'avoiding' tax. In the US it is different and if the IRS decides that a contractor is really an employee they chase the employer for all the relevant employment taxes.
So my experience is that these clever schemes are OK, until they are not. The tax authorities can unravel them very rapidly and backdate their tax demands in a financially painful way.
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Ryan hire 1000 new co-jos a year. They are instructed to claim all their training costs (tr, uniform,hotels) back via these fake shadow companies, and most co-jos dont pay tax for 3 years. So by claiming off their tax bill ryan have pushed a huge chunk of their costs on to local governments! Legacy airlines cannot compete with this unfair playing field
Not to condone Ryanair practices in any way!
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There are collective bargaining issues for pilots flying for Ryanair and Norwegian (pilots at Norwegian are represented to service provider agency OSM, not to the airline). The remedy exists for both groups to significantly improve their lot. The first step is to establish a court ruling the AIRLINE is the employer. Legal rulings in Scandinavia and the USA have recently determined the Norwegian airline to be the employer.
The days may indeed be finally numbered for limited companies and service provider agencies, employing and renting pilots to airlines from PO Boxes and broom cupboard offices, and for those airlines taking advantage of such employment circumvention, shell game schemes.
Now they're employed by the company and have a collective agreement including seniority. (They enjoyed the benefit of the Austrian statutory right to elect a works council but such rights as well as right to join a union exist elsewhere as well.)
It's up to Ryan/Norwegian/etc. pilots to stand up collectively and demand change. It's up to the rest of us to support them in that endeavour (as long as they really try), simply to stop carriers using these practices dragging down T&Cs elsewhere. Solidarity is not charity, but helping Ryan pilots means helping all pilots.
It's not easy as even in the age of innumerable online communication tools you have to be careful not to fall prey to company people posing as conspirators, but that was the same in the early days of US ALPA ("many a pilots membership card was only discovered on his dead body" or so it reads in "Flying the Line"). It can be done, e.g. by "vetting" possible conspirators through a pilot association or using handles whose identity is only known to the pilot union until a framework strong enough for action has been established.
As long as pilots choose to endure conditions "for a couple of years" or conditions that "are not good but not really bad either, at least better as my previous job", nothing will change. If we'd get Europe working instead of falling apart and go for prosperity for the masses rather than prosperity for shareholders, resulting in more air travel and more work for pilots, Ryanair might fall apart by simply not being able to retain pilots, like it seems to happen with US regionals these days. As long as that does not happened, old-fashioned methods like organizing are needed.