I'm thinking of ejecting. Any last hail Marys out there?
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...........and as automation continues its inevitable path.
Will two people be required in on the flight deck in 20 years ?
Will two people be required in on the flight deck in 20 years ?
1) as you've indicated yourself already, the second person will hardly (if at all) cost the airline any money because they will be 'self-sponsored,' magenta line following, seat warming idiots who will keep quiet because they're sitting on a mountain of debt,
2) it's much easier and more convenient to blame the two patsies sitting in the pointy end, instead of blaming only one pilot + the automation (read: Boeing/Airbus). Even partly blaming the automation will lead to years and years of expensive lawsuits against powerful and big corporations, something that will be easily avoided by blaming the pilots.
Dress these two idiots up as professionally looking clowns (hey, they'll even pay for their own uniform!), throw around some completely false and outdated statements like "safety is our number one priority" and create the image that pilots are overpaid and arrogant, and the dumb public will be even happier to step on board of that aircraft with 2 fatigued pilots in the cockpit and minimum fuel in the tanks.
It's all smoke, mirrors and appearances, and the public is so dumb and brainwashed that they'll believe everything. Heck, a lot of the pilots even believe it themselves as you can see from some of the statements in this thread.
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Dress these two idiots up as professionally looking clowns (hey, they'll even pay for their own uniform!), throw around some completely false and outdated statements like "safety is our number one priority" and create the image that pilots are overpaid and arrogant, and the dumb public will be even happier to step on board of that aircraft with 2 fatigued pilots in the cockpit and minimum fuel in the tanks.
Well said Bokkenrijder!!
I even wonder if the general public are aware that the FTL scheme is changing for the worse. Only after a smoking hole in the ground I suspect.
Well said Bokkenrijder!!
I even wonder if the general public are aware that the FTL scheme is changing for the worse. Only after a smoking hole in the ground I suspect.
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I even wonder if the general public are aware that the FTL scheme is changing for the worse. Only after a smoking hole in the ground I suspect.
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Quote:
and have been shielded from the reality of finding themselves out on the street post redundancy
I see, so BCal, Dan Air, Laker, Air Europe, Air Wales, to name just five, never happened then? Youthful arrogance once more to the fore, I fear.
and have been shielded from the reality of finding themselves out on the street post redundancy
I see, so BCal, Dan Air, Laker, Air Europe, Air Wales, to name just five, never happened then? Youthful arrogance once more to the fore, I fear.
I quit. Best move I ever made. On the one hand, I was already trained and experienced in a different trade, so it was pretty easy from a financial standpoint. However, I was one of the few who still loved flying, even after getting paid for it. I loved the experience, just couldn't bring myself to work for regional airline pay, after having made half-way decent money and accrued 7K hours in small freighters. 3 years later I still miss flying, dream about it all the time, but I have absolutely no regrets. I'm almost debt-free, don't stress about losing my medical, enjoy a great deal of respect at work, and generally have a reasonable expectation of each subsequent year being better than the previous one.
The consensus here seems to be that the profession of pilot is no longer attractive. But there will always be those who just have to do it, just as those of my generation had to do it.
The best advice I can offer anyone with the money and determination to take up flying is to qualify in something else first, because you may never make it to that coveted left seat of a jet. And, even if you do, you may come to hate the bloody sacrifices you have to make to get there. So a fall back qualification is essential.
To those like the OP - who at 7000 hours has already invested perhaps a third of his useful working life in the game - either use your current income to qualify in something useful (if you are not already) or get into the check and training scene or some associated management position such as fleet captain or operations manager. Then you may be able to pick up work associated with the industry after pulling the pin.
If you have no other skills, unfortunately there is nothing so useless as an unemployed pilot.
The best advice I can offer anyone with the money and determination to take up flying is to qualify in something else first, because you may never make it to that coveted left seat of a jet. And, even if you do, you may come to hate the bloody sacrifices you have to make to get there. So a fall back qualification is essential.
To those like the OP - who at 7000 hours has already invested perhaps a third of his useful working life in the game - either use your current income to qualify in something useful (if you are not already) or get into the check and training scene or some associated management position such as fleet captain or operations manager. Then you may be able to pick up work associated with the industry after pulling the pin.
If you have no other skills, unfortunately there is nothing so useless as an unemployed pilot.
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Rivet,
You say you are currently a licensed engineer? I have no idea who you work for but i would suggest if your are starting out in commercial flying it will be a considerable time before you earn the kind of money you are making now? No?
You say you are currently a licensed engineer? I have no idea who you work for but i would suggest if your are starting out in commercial flying it will be a considerable time before you earn the kind of money you are making now? No?
Last edited by Flightmech; 11th Mar 2015 at 14:27.
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The truth is that this game sucks more and more with every year that passes. Life is too short, simplifying that life is a good start to getting the hell out.
Life ain't a dress rehearsal. This is the real deal. I'm out having done the maths and decided it was possible. I want to die poor, not rich. There were alternatives in work that paid the bills and savings did the rest. Now a couple of pensions have kicked in. The maths were correct and life style/quality of life exploded: that included family time and an ever shortening bucket list. I tried to imagine, especially on a Sunday lunchtime with my mates over a roast, what it would be like to be getting up at 04.00 on Monday for a block of earlies. I started to shake in horror and had another glass of red to calm me down and stop the jitters. Then the memory receded and all was well with the world again. Even my wife smiled at me remembering the gummy old bear that went to bed early and left home for 5 days the morning after. She dreaded the first day of home coming as the 'get it off my chest' saga took longer each time.
It's over and god save whose ever king or queen you support; even a president.
Life ain't a dress rehearsal. This is the real deal. I'm out having done the maths and decided it was possible. I want to die poor, not rich. There were alternatives in work that paid the bills and savings did the rest. Now a couple of pensions have kicked in. The maths were correct and life style/quality of life exploded: that included family time and an ever shortening bucket list. I tried to imagine, especially on a Sunday lunchtime with my mates over a roast, what it would be like to be getting up at 04.00 on Monday for a block of earlies. I started to shake in horror and had another glass of red to calm me down and stop the jitters. Then the memory receded and all was well with the world again. Even my wife smiled at me remembering the gummy old bear that went to bed early and left home for 5 days the morning after. She dreaded the first day of home coming as the 'get it off my chest' saga took longer each time.
It's over and god save whose ever king or queen you support; even a president.
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"Why should we be paid more,..." Well for a start because the financial commitment to become a pilot is about twenty times that to become a coach driver, nor does an HGV driver have to pass a stiff test twice a year to keep his licence - if that was actually a serious question.
You say you've never done aviation for the money. If by this you mean it wasn't your prime motivation, then me neither. But if you mean the financial remuneration is unimportant that suggests aviation is a hobby to you rather than a profession.
You say you've never done aviation for the money. If by this you mean it wasn't your prime motivation, then me neither. But if you mean the financial remuneration is unimportant that suggests aviation is a hobby to you rather than a profession.
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Nobody talks about nirvana here... I think we talk about balance. And pilot jobs requires a lot nowadays for peanuts in return.
Oh, and spare us the "best office view" thanks. Due to sunlight, most of the time I put maps on the windshield or the brown glasses protection and see nothing for hours except efis.
Oh, and spare us the "best office view" thanks. Due to sunlight, most of the time I put maps on the windshield or the brown glasses protection and see nothing for hours except efis.
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find a position with T&C's you're looking for and change to that !
By the time you are working 900 hrs a year for no money, all the companies you were hoping to switch to are just as bad. With the help of yourself.
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I'm intrigued how you feel the industry gives you "a pretty good standard of living", Scottish guy, when by your own account, its not providing you any living at all.
I'm not complaining about my own lot; I'm a wide-body Captain and have been fortunate enough to maintain a reasonable career path. But I'm very much aware that if I was starting out today it would be much less rosy. But that situation has arisen, at least in part, because of people like you who treat aviation as a hobby and are prepared to occupy a professional pilot's seat for the "privilege of getting airborne".
I'm not complaining about my own lot; I'm a wide-body Captain and have been fortunate enough to maintain a reasonable career path. But I'm very much aware that if I was starting out today it would be much less rosy. But that situation has arisen, at least in part, because of people like you who treat aviation as a hobby and are prepared to occupy a professional pilot's seat for the "privilege of getting airborne".
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The truth is that this game sucks more and more with every year that passes. Life is too short, simplifying that life is a good start to getting the hell out.
Life ain't a dress rehearsal. This is the real deal. I'm out having done the maths and decided it was possible. I want to die poor, not rich. There were alternatives in work that paid the bills and savings did the rest. Now a couple of pensions have kicked in. The maths were correct and life style/quality of life exploded: that included family time and an ever shortening bucket list. I tried to imagine, especially on a Sunday lunchtime with my mates over a roast, what it would be like to be getting up at 04.00 on Monday for a block of earlies. I started to shake in horror and had another glass of red to calm me down and stop the jitters. Then the memory receded and all was well with the world again. Even my wife smiled at me remembering the gummy old bear that went to bed early and left home for 5 days the morning after. She dreaded the first day of home coming as the 'get it off my chest' saga took longer each time.
It's over and god save whose ever king or queen you support; even a president.
Life ain't a dress rehearsal. This is the real deal. I'm out having done the maths and decided it was possible. I want to die poor, not rich. There were alternatives in work that paid the bills and savings did the rest. Now a couple of pensions have kicked in. The maths were correct and life style/quality of life exploded: that included family time and an ever shortening bucket list. I tried to imagine, especially on a Sunday lunchtime with my mates over a roast, what it would be like to be getting up at 04.00 on Monday for a block of earlies. I started to shake in horror and had another glass of red to calm me down and stop the jitters. Then the memory receded and all was well with the world again. Even my wife smiled at me remembering the gummy old bear that went to bed early and left home for 5 days the morning after. She dreaded the first day of home coming as the 'get it off my chest' saga took longer each time.
It's over and god save whose ever king or queen you support; even a president.
When you get to mid life, have a partner, home, have been furloughed/redundant, fatigued, joined airline "z" on the latest scummy deal then who knows who you'll feel. Some folk don't have this bumpy career path and fair better in the short term. I say short as its a changing world we work in.
Some people no doubt continueing enjoying the job and can make the lifestyle sacrifices work under the state of play as it is at the moment. That's fair play. I respect that a great deal. We're all individuals with individual lives. I like seeing people who are happy.
But what I struggle to understand is how in a world where we're supposed to be emotionally mature, balanced individuals, those same individuals can castigate people for daring to hold their hands up and say "you know what, it ain't working. I'm glad I gave it a whirl, I've no idea what to do next and need to find something because it's making me and my loved ones compromise too much and we've only got one shot here". People who say to give the job up and allow someone who wants to do it for example. You'd expect that of a youngster but not an emotionally mature person. A lot of people got themselves where they are off their own hides and owe the next guy waiting for a seat - nothing. Many would call it a day but need to work out an exit strategy.
Just remember. Folk aren't "pilots" they're people like anyone carving a life, with lives, troubles, births, marriages, joy and illness like anyway else. It's perfectly ok to say it ain't working. Just seems within the piloting field there's folk who believed once you put that label on yourself you've signed into a Faustian deal and need your head checked for even thinking of leaving and are displaying some sort of un greatful misdemeanour towards the Gods who allow piloting for even mentioning alternatives.
Just remember, you popped into this life bare arsed, pink skinned and not much else. You certainly didn't come with a label "life valid only if installed in flight deck"
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I'm absolutely stunned by some of the posts on here, I truly am. Yes for the most part flying nowadays is not as challenging as in the past. However, when the going gets tough it can be bloody tough.
To compare it to driving an HGV is displaying stunning ignorance of the highest degree. In really
weather in a lorry you can step on the brake and pull over. In an aircraft you are committed to seeing it through to the bitter end (in an environment that is far more complex and changeable than the M4) at the same time as ensuring the safety of hundreds of souls on board with extremely litigious families. Burning human flesh leaves a slightly larger imprint on the mind and the conscience than a supply of IKEA furniture.
I flew an approach just a couple of days ago with a last minute runway change, high, fast, heavy and thirty knots up the chuff. Walk in the park some might say, but I would love to see the outcome with just one person in the flight deck rather than two. Well actually I don't think I would.
I can't believe the attitudes of so called pilots on here that take no pride in their profession and are happy to denigrate it at every opportunity. There are obviously tendencies to self loathing that are running deep on a subconscious level here and I do not know the cause but it's disturbing to see the trend and how common it is. Grow up and have some professional pride. Yes we deserve our money, every penny. Truly baffling to hear any kind of argument otherwise.
This reduction of T's & C's is not something that is particular to pilots. This disturbing trend is happening in just about EVERY profession right now. Take a while to ponder that. Whilst you try to sit and pick holes in your career to find justification in why salaries should decrease just remember that there are a whole group of professionals in fields outside aviation who could conceivably be doing the exact same thing. Don't entertain it, fight against it.
To compare it to driving an HGV is displaying stunning ignorance of the highest degree. In really
weather in a lorry you can step on the brake and pull over. In an aircraft you are committed to seeing it through to the bitter end (in an environment that is far more complex and changeable than the M4) at the same time as ensuring the safety of hundreds of souls on board with extremely litigious families. Burning human flesh leaves a slightly larger imprint on the mind and the conscience than a supply of IKEA furniture.I flew an approach just a couple of days ago with a last minute runway change, high, fast, heavy and thirty knots up the chuff. Walk in the park some might say, but I would love to see the outcome with just one person in the flight deck rather than two. Well actually I don't think I would.
I can't believe the attitudes of so called pilots on here that take no pride in their profession and are happy to denigrate it at every opportunity. There are obviously tendencies to self loathing that are running deep on a subconscious level here and I do not know the cause but it's disturbing to see the trend and how common it is. Grow up and have some professional pride. Yes we deserve our money, every penny. Truly baffling to hear any kind of argument otherwise.
This reduction of T's & C's is not something that is particular to pilots. This disturbing trend is happening in just about EVERY profession right now. Take a while to ponder that. Whilst you try to sit and pick holes in your career to find justification in why salaries should decrease just remember that there are a whole group of professionals in fields outside aviation who could conceivably be doing the exact same thing. Don't entertain it, fight against it.
Last edited by RexBanner; 12th Mar 2015 at 09:59.
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A bit of thread creep, and I'll aid and abet that: sorry.
You say that many industries are employing the tactic of reducing T's & C's to remain competitive. You say it is becoming more common to work more for less reward; as customers to buy more for less. As we become used to that it can mean production being driven to LoCo countries as EU financial/social policies & associated costs drive prices too high and consumers will not spend. It will be self-defeating for national economies. Sadly, it will take a quite a long time before governments realise that their local workforce is not working and paying taxes and supporting the older generation. Driving production and services outside your own borders will have consequences in the long term. Capitalism and its demand for short term profit does not follow long term sensible government policy. They are acting in opposite directions.
So T's & C's in EU marketes are being allowed to drift lower yet the ECB says it is disturbed by present low inflation. It wants to increase it to 2% to help recovery and growth. So how does that model accommodate a lowering of incomes? Higher prices with less money to spend. Hm?
One way people can increase their life style is to have 2 wage earners and less children. That has been going on for many years now. A natural process of family financial management. I read that Italy is now in a critical low birthrate dilemma. They project forward a couple of generations and there will not enough wage earners to maintain the economy. No doubt the same could be happening under the radar in the other wealthy countries. So the short term profit gained by lowering T's & C's coupled with higher inflation and the consequent lower birthrate might have some distressing repercussions. Ours is but a very small cog in a very big wheel. That doesn't make it any less painful for our members.
You say that many industries are employing the tactic of reducing T's & C's to remain competitive. You say it is becoming more common to work more for less reward; as customers to buy more for less. As we become used to that it can mean production being driven to LoCo countries as EU financial/social policies & associated costs drive prices too high and consumers will not spend. It will be self-defeating for national economies. Sadly, it will take a quite a long time before governments realise that their local workforce is not working and paying taxes and supporting the older generation. Driving production and services outside your own borders will have consequences in the long term. Capitalism and its demand for short term profit does not follow long term sensible government policy. They are acting in opposite directions.
So T's & C's in EU marketes are being allowed to drift lower yet the ECB says it is disturbed by present low inflation. It wants to increase it to 2% to help recovery and growth. So how does that model accommodate a lowering of incomes? Higher prices with less money to spend. Hm?
One way people can increase their life style is to have 2 wage earners and less children. That has been going on for many years now. A natural process of family financial management. I read that Italy is now in a critical low birthrate dilemma. They project forward a couple of generations and there will not enough wage earners to maintain the economy. No doubt the same could be happening under the radar in the other wealthy countries. So the short term profit gained by lowering T's & C's coupled with higher inflation and the consequent lower birthrate might have some distressing repercussions. Ours is but a very small cog in a very big wheel. That doesn't make it any less painful for our members.
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I agree that terms and conditions for workers in nearly all industries have been on a decline in real terms since the late 70's.
Funny that at the same time CEO's relative pays have multiplied by ridiculous amounts. The majority of the workforce take constant small cuts, and then the top of the tree get huge bonuses.
I think we are reaching the limit of how far this can go. Or at least I hope it can't, because it's totally
Funny that at the same time CEO's relative pays have multiplied by ridiculous amounts. The majority of the workforce take constant small cuts, and then the top of the tree get huge bonuses.
I think we are reaching the limit of how far this can go. Or at least I hope it can't, because it's totally
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I think we are reaching the limit of how far this can go. Or at least I hope it can't, because it's totally
RexBanner, you have a point in that salaries are decreasing across the board, not just in aviation. The big issue again is not so much the reduction in pay, but more the overall reduction in quality of life, the fatigue, the jet lag, the dry air, the radiation and possible aerotoxic side-effects on your body. Office people might indeed also get less pay, but at least they can have a life and enjoy the small things in life that don't necessarily cost a lot of money, like joining a dance class, a yoga class, play football, attend a birthday party, go to a PTA meeting or meet friends.
How on earth do they (management) want us to settle down, when they constantly threaten us with outsourcing and/or base closures, leaving us not much choice other than staying flexible and/or voting with our feet? I see a lot of colleagues that have fallen into this same trap, and I also see a lot of extremely exhausted colleagues who have not fallen into that trap but pay dearly for it by having to commute with impossible rosters.
ShotOne summed it up perfectly: "...that situation has arisen, at least in part, because of people like you who treat aviation as a hobby and are prepared to occupy a professional pilot's seat for the "privilege of getting airborne."
Too many amateurs with no life and no friends treating it as a hobby, afraid to take 2 kilos of extra fuel, afraid to refuse to go into discretion, afraid to be critical of management, head buried deep in the sand ignoring any inconvenient truths as long as they can walk around in that cool uniform and as long as they think that their status as a pilot can fill that huge void that's called: life.