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Old 14th Aug 2007, 21:59   #1 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Have BA and BALPA already agreed on EU 757 Pilots?

Hi
A very strong rumour (ok from 1 person) circulating is that British Airways and Balpa have already agreed on the crewing of the EU based 757 Open Skies flights to the US. As far as I knew, things hadn't progressed that far yet. My source informs me that BA and Balpa have 'agreed' to use non mainline flight crew, and some members of Balpa are trying to convince the members that BA pilots are the most costly and least efficient in Europe!!
I hope it's not true but sounds very worrying that there seems to be a lot of talk from within Balpa about how costly we are. Perhaps by trying this 'spin', when the company does announce that the 757's will be crewed by non mainline pilots, the union will say ' hey guys, what do you expect, we just cost too much'
Perhaps i'm paranoid

Last edited by Angryfool; 20th Aug 2007 at 17:01. Reason: Misleading Title
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Old 14th Aug 2007, 22:50   #2 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
... hey guys, what do you expect, we just cost too much
Bloody right we do.

Compared to other airlines, we get lots of money and lots of time off. If this wasn't the case then I'd work for someone else.
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Old 14th Aug 2007, 22:57   #3 (permalink)
 
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mainline crew will operate the new routes....keeps it simple,easy to integrate and substitute when necessary.crewing costs not an issue as loads of money to be made from the open skies so long as we get in quickly.any delay due to crewing of pilots or cabin crew would be a disaster.easy to integrate..i.e.....LHR/JFK/FRA/EWR/LHR...lets start raking in the $$$$$ sss asap
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Old 14th Aug 2007, 23:11   #4 (permalink)
 
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It makes sense to use local crews - eliminating hotels and positioning.

Just set it up as Manchester used to be, and ensure that no London routes are outsourced. Not an issue.

How can this at all be an issue when living and working from a lower-cost city than London logically means a lower salary?!
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Old 14th Aug 2007, 23:58   #5 (permalink)
 
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So logically if you live in Birmingham and work out of LHR then you should earn less money than if you live in London and work out of LHR. Hmmmm.
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Old 15th Aug 2007, 01:34   #6 (permalink)
 
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Live where you choose - Birmingham and Manchester bases worked fine.
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Old 15th Aug 2007, 09:21   #7 (permalink)
XRJ
 
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Not swallowing any of that. I hope BALPA will fight very hard indeed to set up bases with mainline crews. That's what they're paid for.
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Old 15th Aug 2007, 09:44   #8 (permalink)
 
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I think BALPA's point about BA pilots being at the top of the benchmark is more to do with encouraging us to support the union and recognise that it is BALPA that has achieved that benchmark. We should be positive about it.

After all, we are not well paid because BA have said "lets pay our pilots a bloody good wage because they deserve it", they would however say "lets start a second airline and undermine the bloody good wage of existing pilots." BALPA are currently fighting off attacks from all angles and need the support of every pilot. If we can't see the wood from the trees there is a tendancy to blame BALPA rather than BA.

I think BALPA are trying to address the culture of "moaning Nigel", and change it into "winning Nigel". Because if you don't recognise you've got something worth fighting for, and an effective union, you're not going to fight for it.

Air Lingus pilots have got the back bone to stand up for themselves, see Aldergrove strike 21/22nd August. They know they're at the top of the benchmark, they support their union, they saw off WW long ago and they will win.
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Old 15th Aug 2007, 16:03   #9 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Not swallowing any of that. I hope BALPA will fight very hard indeed to set up bases with mainline crews. That's what they're paid for.
I hope so as well XRJ, but it seems the company will want to source it with non mainline pilots because it will be cheaper, according to them. So at some point it will be a fight between Balpa and BA over who should crew these flights. I think it's already been decided, but if it hasn't then it will be interesting to see how Balpa play their hand.

Quote:
I think BALPA's point about BA pilots being at the top of the benchmark is more to do with encouraging us to support the union and recognise that it is BALPA that has achieved that benchmark. We should be positive about it.
BA pilots are not the top of the tree, yet Balpa seem to be preaching that we are. Air France and Iberia have better pay/conditions to name but 2 airlines. It's nothing about supporting Balpa, but more to do with something brewing between BA and Balpa.

Let's wait and see to see Balpa's direction with the first test, the work coverage talks
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Old 15th Aug 2007, 16:14   #10 (permalink)
 
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Are you sure about those Air France/Iberia conditions? Air France perhaps, but that is a partially state owned and state protected airline. The IB guys I've spoken to don't score themselves quite as highly as you do. I'm not really buying the BALPA submission line, particularly as one of the vice-chairmen is regularly hinting that they might need to call on members support over this issue in the near future. I suspect whoever is spreading the rumour of capitulation is closely associated with the dark side and indulging in some deliberate rumour-mongering.
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Old 15th Aug 2007, 16:18   #11 (permalink)
 
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Air France has been a private company for some time now.
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Old 15th Aug 2007, 16:45   #12 (permalink)
 
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Have the French government sold their 19% stake in the merged business?
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Old 15th Aug 2007, 23:22   #13 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Are you sure about those Air France/Iberia conditions?
Yes I am. The Iberia pilots that you met, did they disclose any information about hours flown/year, pension, benifits etc. Both mainline Air France and Iberia pilots have a better package than ourselves. Some Balpa reps seem to think this is not the case, however suprise suprise their figures have not been made public to the members Why is this I ask? They seem to harp on about it.

Quote:
ir France perhaps, but that is a partially state owned and state protected airline
I don't know if it is Hand Solo, but that is not the point I am trying to make.
My point is that we are being fed 'spin' by being told we are the best paid. Where are the numbers?? Make them public to the members please if that is what you believe, and compare like with like.
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Old 16th Aug 2007, 07:37   #14 (permalink)
 
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The Iberia pilot I spoke to was an A340 pilot flying similar hours (at the time) but making less money than an equivalent BA pilot would be. I am afraid it is up to you Angryfool to prove your information is correct. There are enough reps in the BACC to sound the alarm if BALPAs benchmarking figures were being deliberately doctored. If you have hard evidence to prove that other airlines are doing better than us then show us so we have something to aim towards. If you have the numbers then make them public and blow BALPA out of the water for us.
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Old 16th Aug 2007, 08:29   #15 (permalink)
 
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If BA does start to base permanantly base crews at european bases they will encounter the same problems as Easyjet (and others) concerning local employment laws and taxation rules.
As always nothing is as straight forward as it initialy looks.
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Old 16th Aug 2007, 09:01   #16 (permalink)
 
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I'd rather imagine the BA would prefer to set the operation up with New York based pilots rather than European bases. Either way, hotel accommodation will be required somewhere.

It is the resolve of BA pilots and BALPA to ensure that the pilots are actually existing BA pilots and to find a way with BA of making the costing work.
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Old 16th Aug 2007, 22:03   #17 (permalink)
 
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AngryFool, are you a BALPA member? If so, go on the BALPA forum and ask directly the question. I'm sure the reps would be more than willing to answer your question directly. If you're not, then you you have no right to criticise BALPA or even be asking the question. I don't think spreading rumours like this in public is helpful to BA pilots, or BALPA who I'm sure are doing their upmost to address this issue. It just undermines their position. I know this is a rumour network but there are over 3000 people's careers which could be affected by this issue and I think you should consider this more before posting unfounded rumours on a public forum. Rant over!!
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Old 17th Aug 2007, 11:52   #18 (permalink)
 
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Once again it seems to be something that is not thought out fully. Indeed there is business to be gained from this operation but many others are already doing it and doing it well. For BA to set up yet again another offshot may well prove to be a failure. At BA we presently have more than a few serious problems that need to be rectified without been diverted on another scheme.
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Old 17th Aug 2007, 15:48   #19 (permalink)
 
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AngryFool, are you a BALPA member? If so, go on the BALPA forum and ask directly the question. I'm sure the reps would be more than willing to answer your question directly. If you're not, then you you have no right to criticise BALPA or even be asking the question
Propellerhead, I am indeed a Balpa member, and I think you will find the question has been asked directly and indirectly. Are the Reps answering the question? Has any Rep posted the other EU airlines pay scales even though they have been asked to provide evidence for their comments? Well as far as I know the answer to the latter question is NO, and the reason, well it's too confidential to be posted on the forum. Give me a break! If a Rep comes out with a comment like, oh BA pilots are the best paid etc, then show the research to the BALPA members and don't hide behind the usual you people don't understand or it's confidential information.

Quote:
I don't think spreading rumours like this in public is helpful to BA pilots, or BALPA who I'm sure are doing their upmost to address this issue
The basis for this rumour is a BA manager, and yes, he might be lying and stirring it up, then maybe perhaps not. But it's strange how several BA managers have now said this, and around the same time, Balpa start talking about how costly we are. Why do Balpa even need to mention this? I always thought that it was managements job to make us think how fortunate we are, not my own Union!

If and when this happens, and BA mainline pilots are used, then I will stand corrected and be very


Quote:
I can say with absolute certainty that this rumour is FALSE.
I hope so BigBurtha


Quote:
Once again it seems to be something that is not thought out fully.
That would be most management decisions in BA then. Has not stoped them before and will not do again.
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Old 19th Aug 2007, 20:15   #20 (permalink)
 
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Angryfool,
Even if what you say is true,I doubt very much the members will strike if balloted. It will not be an issue balpa will war over with the company and even if they wanted to,will not have the backing of the majority of it's members.

I believe BA have decided how they will crew the operation but do not go along with your assertion that balpa have agreed or indeed know. I think you will find that when the time comes they will decide what happens and have no need to negotiate with balpa. To negotiate would imply that balpa have some influence on key financial decisions the company makes.
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