Thrust on during flare...Q for AIRBUS test pilots...
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If you are coming down fast (on VS rates that is) and you pitch up without adding thrust, you'll probably have an unpleasant experience.
For the OP - if you need it, use it.
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I still keep Vref+10 min and fly a manual approach almost always, so flare is hardly ever an issue.
You keep +10 kts for your mum?to keep a safety buffer on your flying skills,to keep your FO "speed low" at bay or because you enjoy floating?
Tongue in cheek mate
Originally Posted by Noodle
This can be a VERY long discussion of course (Pitch or power etc etc) but regarding your specific question relative to flare, your experience will prove that in order to arrest descent, you add thrust. The reason you pitch up is to bleed off excess speed during flare.
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defacto, you should try it before commenting in such a manner.
You never "float" when you fly the aircraft all the way down. You float when you carry excess speed and then try to bleed off before touchdown.
If you keep the speed where you want it in order to keep your pitch angle at your desired number, then thrust controls your rate of descent. You always touch right where you want to, and always smoother than when you keep Vref.
Are you saying that the aircraft cannot land and it will float because you're doing 150 instead of 140? Its the AoA that makes you float. Flaring for speed is also the reason for almost all tail strikes.
Don't try playing it smart mate, keep your tongue in your cheek.
Try giving us your explanation of how this works instead. The way you would have taught this guy that asked the original question.
Lord Spandex, I agree. Both go hand in hand.
Bloggs, so if you would add thrust and keep your pitch you hit hard? I don't watch youtube to learn how to fly son. It is the power that makes it happen. Pitch is only for speed. You can keep the same pitch, same speed, and climb out before touchdown. Its all in the trust levers.
You never "float" when you fly the aircraft all the way down. You float when you carry excess speed and then try to bleed off before touchdown.
If you keep the speed where you want it in order to keep your pitch angle at your desired number, then thrust controls your rate of descent. You always touch right where you want to, and always smoother than when you keep Vref.
Are you saying that the aircraft cannot land and it will float because you're doing 150 instead of 140? Its the AoA that makes you float. Flaring for speed is also the reason for almost all tail strikes.
Don't try playing it smart mate, keep your tongue in your cheek.
Try giving us your explanation of how this works instead. The way you would have taught this guy that asked the original question.
Lord Spandex, I agree. Both go hand in hand.
Bloggs, so if you would add thrust and keep your pitch you hit hard? I don't watch youtube to learn how to fly son. It is the power that makes it happen. Pitch is only for speed. You can keep the same pitch, same speed, and climb out before touchdown. Its all in the trust levers.
Well I don't know who taught you to fly Jets mate but I was taught 30 years ago that Thrust controls the speed ( just like the Autothrust does on a coupled approach, the Autothrust is in SPEED mode isn't it??????) and Pitch controls the sink ( ie keeps the G/S )Naturally they go hand in hand as one effects the other and yes you could reverse the two if you feel that way BUT that's not the way Boeing and Airbus designed the machine to be flown.
Copy from the A330 FCTM:---
USE OF A/THR
The pilot should use the A/THR for approaches as it provides accurate speed control. The pilot will keep the hand on the thrust levers so as to be prepared to react if needed.
Who teaches these guys anyway????????????
Copy from the A330 FCTM:---
USE OF A/THR
The pilot should use the A/THR for approaches as it provides accurate speed control. The pilot will keep the hand on the thrust levers so as to be prepared to react if needed.
Who teaches these guys anyway????????????
Last edited by nitpicker330; 25th Mar 2014 at 11:59.
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So you pitch for path and use thrust for your speed, right?
And you say that you've been flying jets for 30 years……
Maybe props, if not only sims.
I know its the oldest argument in the book but still, you have to be a bit more careful with you comments.
Regarding the A/T modes, what tems Boeing is using is totally irrelevant to the basic principles of flying we are discussing here.
I would suggest you buy a classic book, like Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators, and try studying again what controls what in large jet aircraft.
Go on, keep it coming.
And you say that you've been flying jets for 30 years……
Maybe props, if not only sims.
I know its the oldest argument in the book but still, you have to be a bit more careful with you comments.
Regarding the A/T modes, what tems Boeing is using is totally irrelevant to the basic principles of flying we are discussing here.
I would suggest you buy a classic book, like Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators, and try studying again what controls what in large jet aircraft.
Go on, keep it coming.
Whatever you say buddy boy.
I've managed to cope for quite a while now thanks after learning my trade from highly experienced training Captains trained by Boeing. I appreciate your concern though!!
The basics we all use are as I've said above, feel free to do otherwise if it makes you happy.
I Haven't fired up XPlane for a while now, might see if it still works although the DVD drive is playing up a bit.
I only have 384 hours on F50's if that helps ya? The rest of my experience is on Boeing and Bus...
Oh and that FCTM quote was from AIRBUS not Boeing.....and the modes I quoted were Airbus as well. If you flew either of these you would know the difference.
I've managed to cope for quite a while now thanks after learning my trade from highly experienced training Captains trained by Boeing. I appreciate your concern though!!
The basics we all use are as I've said above, feel free to do otherwise if it makes you happy.
I Haven't fired up XPlane for a while now, might see if it still works although the DVD drive is playing up a bit.
I only have 384 hours on F50's if that helps ya? The rest of my experience is on Boeing and Bus...
Oh and that FCTM quote was from AIRBUS not Boeing.....and the modes I quoted were Airbus as well. If you flew either of these you would know the difference.
Originally Posted by Noodle
You float when you carry excess speed and then try to bleed off before touchdown.
Originally Posted by Noodle
Are you saying that the aircraft cannot land and it will float because you're doing 150 instead of 140? Its the AoA that makes you float.
Bloggs, so if you would add thrust and keep your pitch you hit hard?
Originally Posted by Noodle
I don't watch youtube to learn how to fly son.
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I can read all right.
384 hours. Very precise. Probably recent too and most probably not any on Boeing or Airbus.
"You all use"? Who are you all? Being part of many that do it the wrong way doesn't mean it makes it right sonny.
Read this book I told you and then re-read your "authority" comments on jet control. It will keep you laughing for hours……
Bloggs, I never said that the nose comes up because of power. Try to read the comment thoroughly. I said it doesn't even need to come up. I like the comments on the age. Shows your attitude. I am sure it will help you a lot in the future.
Its a pity you were trained the wrong landing technique. But its never too late to learn the correct one. Thats what makes you a good pilot, always learning.
384 hours. Very precise. Probably recent too and most probably not any on Boeing or Airbus.
"You all use"? Who are you all? Being part of many that do it the wrong way doesn't mean it makes it right sonny.
Read this book I told you and then re-read your "authority" comments on jet control. It will keep you laughing for hours……
Bloggs, I never said that the nose comes up because of power. Try to read the comment thoroughly. I said it doesn't even need to come up. I like the comments on the age. Shows your attitude. I am sure it will help you a lot in the future.
Its a pity you were trained the wrong landing technique. But its never too late to learn the correct one. Thats what makes you a good pilot, always learning.
I'm shaking my head Bloggsy?????? I'm at a loss for words to describe what he says mainly because I don't understand it....
Please tell me he doesn't command anything serious?
Yes 384 on the F50's in Australia before being upgraded to the 733 way back in 1988. Problem with me knowing that?? I'm not that old my memory is going!!
Think I bought a copy of Aerodynamics for a Naval aviators back in 1982 when I did my ATPL subjects? Heavy reading.
Handling the Big Jets is another good read, perhaps you have read it? Perhaps you SHOULD read it.
Please tell me he doesn't command anything serious?
Yes 384 on the F50's in Australia before being upgraded to the 733 way back in 1988. Problem with me knowing that?? I'm not that old my memory is going!!
Think I bought a copy of Aerodynamics for a Naval aviators back in 1982 when I did my ATPL subjects? Heavy reading.
Handling the Big Jets is another good read, perhaps you have read it? Perhaps you SHOULD read it.
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NoodleAir
There is not doubt that you flare to reduce ROD (change flight path). You do not add thrust, now depending on your ROD in last 100 feet you may flare early and also hold on to thrust till you are sure that the ROD is reduced sufficiently and then bring thrust to idle. If this is not good enough then you should go around. That is as far as landing is concerned.
There is not doubt that you flare to reduce ROD (change flight path). You do not add thrust, now depending on your ROD in last 100 feet you may flare early and also hold on to thrust till you are sure that the ROD is reduced sufficiently and then bring thrust to idle. If this is not good enough then you should go around. That is as far as landing is concerned.
From a 2009 737 NG FCTM:
When the threshold passes under the airplane nose and out of sight, shift the visual sighting point to the far end of the runway. Shifting the visual sighting point assists in controlling the pitch attitude during the flare. Maintaining a constant airspeed and descent rate assists in determining the flare point. Initiate the flare when the main gear is approximately 20 feet above the runway by increasing pitch attitude approximately 2° - 3°. This slows the rate of descent.
After the flare is initiated, smoothly retard the thrust levers to idle, and make small pitch attitude adjustments to maintain the desired descent rate to the runway. Ideally, main gear touchdown should occur simultaneously with thrust levers reaching idle. A smooth thrust reduction to idle also assists in controlling the natural nose-down pitch change associated with thrust reduction. Hold sufficient back pressure on the control column tokeep the pitch attitude constant.
After the flare is initiated, smoothly retard the thrust levers to idle, and make small pitch attitude adjustments to maintain the desired descent rate to the runway. Ideally, main gear touchdown should occur simultaneously with thrust levers reaching idle. A smooth thrust reduction to idle also assists in controlling the natural nose-down pitch change associated with thrust reduction. Hold sufficient back pressure on the control column tokeep the pitch attitude constant.
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You can fly the book.
I can fly the plane.
Read the book I told you, most of the Boeing test and certification pilots have used it for their whole career.
Then we can talk on the techniques and what is exactly you disagree with in my comments.
I can fly the plane.
Read the book I told you, most of the Boeing test and certification pilots have used it for their whole career.
Then we can talk on the techniques and what is exactly you disagree with in my comments.
Blah blah blah, he said, she said etc etc..
My Dick is bigger than yours etc etc ( I do suspect you have a big watch )
Your technique is WRONG.
unless of course we don't understand what it is you are trying to say??
Perhaps explain to the world exactly how you control the approach and what you do to flare the a/c? Point out to me the error in my ways......
My Dick is bigger than yours etc etc ( I do suspect you have a big watch )
Your technique is WRONG.
unless of course we don't understand what it is you are trying to say??
Perhaps explain to the world exactly how you control the approach and what you do to flare the a/c? Point out to me the error in my ways......
Noodle, you've lost it.
You said:
and then you said:
How then do you explain that every reasonable landing has the nose pitching up a couple of degrees? If this power increase of yours to arrest descent is not the reason, then what causes it??
You would be well advised to do some flying with Vilas. You need some staightening out on a few fundamentals...
You started it. I very much doubt I'm young enough to be your son...
You said:
but regarding your specific question relative to flare, your experience will prove that in order to arrest descent, you add thrust.
I never said that the nose comes up because of power. Try to read the comment thoroughly. I said it doesn't even need to come up.
You would be well advised to do some flying with Vilas. You need some staightening out on a few fundamentals...
Originally Posted by Noodle
I like the comments on the age. Shows your attitude.
Last edited by Capn Bloggs; 25th Mar 2014 at 12:52. Reason: I can fly (I think) but I can't spel...
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I am saying -not trying to say- that when you say that you control your path in a jet by pointing your nose up or down, then you are not entitled to comment on this thread.
Not in any helpful way at least.
You are lacking elementary knowledge and obviously, experience.
It is a free forum, you can say whatever you want and jump into discussions way too deep for you, but it is evident that you have no idea how things are in reality.
Not in any helpful way at least.
You are lacking elementary knowledge and obviously, experience.
It is a free forum, you can say whatever you want and jump into discussions way too deep for you, but it is evident that you have no idea how things are in reality.
I guess I won't have to go flying in my 233 tonne A330 on Sunday then.....
Yay, sleep in...
You still haven't explained your technique for flight path management, speed control and flare to us yet......
Care to try?
Oh an I've read enough of Capn Bloggs posts oven the last years to know he's the real deal, suggest you read some of my previous posts.
Yay, sleep in...
You still haven't explained your technique for flight path management, speed control and flare to us yet......
Care to try?
Oh an I've read enough of Capn Bloggs posts oven the last years to know he's the real deal, suggest you read some of my previous posts.
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Read my posts.
You pitch for your desired airspeed and adjust thrust for desired path.
Simple as that.
Flare needs depend on a thousand different factors. Too complicated for you when you can't even grasp the basics.
Typical Magenda kid. Poor passengers…..
You pitch for your desired airspeed and adjust thrust for desired path.
Simple as that.
Flare needs depend on a thousand different factors. Too complicated for you when you can't even grasp the basics.
Typical Magenda kid. Poor passengers…..
English isn't your first language is it??
The word is Magenta...
The saying is "sons and daughters of the Magenta line" do you even know what the magenta line is young fella?
I've managed not to bend anything since I started flying in 1979, only 14 more years to retirement!!
When you can match that then come and talk to me....
The word is Magenta...
The saying is "sons and daughters of the Magenta line" do you even know what the magenta line is young fella?
I've managed not to bend anything since I started flying in 1979, only 14 more years to retirement!!
When you can match that then come and talk to me....
