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Two sets of hands on the throttles...why?

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Two sets of hands on the throttles...why?

Old 16th Feb 2011, 10:38
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How very dare people use CRM or SOPs....? Next thing you know, people will be making you read checklists!
How "very dare" they use it as an excuse to take over command of an aircraft. CRM started out as increasing crew cohesion, it has turned into something of a joke, in my eyes, which is utilized to attempt to control the person above you in the chain of command. SOPs will never account for every possible scenario you run into in the real world at that's where the CAs experience and discretion come in, some companies (and many pilots for that matter) don't enjoy the idea of crews having to use their knowledge, experience and ability to resolve unconventional situation, others encourage it, ultimatley you can get violated for not following a reg, you can get yourself and your crew killed for not following common sense, but following or not following SOPs (guidelines) will do neither, my 2 concerns are keeping my license and living. The rest you ask... I don't give a .
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Old 16th Feb 2011, 11:24
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Probably time to retire then...
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Old 16th Feb 2011, 11:56
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If you wanna make it personal, I'll say this much, probably best you and me don't work at the same companies as you remind me of the sort of person who does try to usurp PIC authority. I still have a few decades left in me yet anyway.
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Old 16th Feb 2011, 12:46
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Old Fella you are making a bunch of incorrect assumptions. I'm not interesting in arguing so I'll leave it at that.
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Old 16th Feb 2011, 23:21
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18-Wheeler

Funny story and your F/E sounds like he had a problem but rapid advancement of throttles will reveal early an engine that wants to stall. I have allways been a firm believer when testing an engine to advance quickly up to where you think 80%n1 might be the set power from there. Better an engine stall before 80kts than when you need the motor and firewall it st save your arse.



A note on the topic, I have come across several classic a/c throttle's with an extension lever to make it easier on the F/E to set thrust. So each throttle had 2 levers so to speak.
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Old 17th Feb 2011, 00:37
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I've found the opposite. A slow hand on the throttles is the way to go.
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Old 17th Feb 2011, 00:52
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Assumptions

No assumptions 18 Wheeler. Just responding to your post and offering an opinion based on what you wrote and your public profile.
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Old 17th Feb 2011, 01:01
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A37575

That's the way we did it. copilot actually flew the plane on the autopilot, manipulating the throttles...the captain on the throttles in a position to lift the copilot's hand away from the throttles when he took over for landing or manual go around.

It was well staged, well thought out and demanding. After you did one for real, you felt you had earned your money. But we never had a CAT II accident or incident. Just like landing at KDCA, you were UP FOR IT.
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Old 17th Feb 2011, 01:40
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Ah, then you're just plain wrong then, Old Fella.
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Old 17th Feb 2011, 01:59
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Interesting comments Fantom, you haven't been away from the ol' 727 for that long...

Cheers to you...
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Old 17th Feb 2011, 04:02
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the captain on the throttles in a position to lift the copilot's hand away from the throttles
Some pilots do not appreciate the feeling of someone's sweaty hand on top of theirs. Simply ask the other pilot to remove his/her hand from the throttles when you wish to take over.
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Old 17th Feb 2011, 04:56
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A3757

you see, that is the protocol...the captain moves his hand from the base of the throttles to the top, displacing the copilots...then the captain lands the plane.

gee a little sweat in the cockpit...wow, what a concept!
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Old 17th Feb 2011, 05:13
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odd situation

F/O on descent and landing pilot, after G/S CAP. F/O "guards" the throttles, captain starts bitching him out. A few hundred feet AGL and F/O picks his hand back up, Captain slaps his freaking hand! Don't know (actually I do) if this captain was just a jerk (he was one) or if he had some legitimate reason to reserve a clear path to the throttles for himself! None the less completely unprofessional.
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Old 17th Feb 2011, 05:15
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Just plain wrong!!!

18 Wheeler Please enlighten me on just which parts of my post were "just plain wrong" or "huge assumptions". Your quote, in part, "since I was only letting him (F/E) push them up slowly and I'm literally twice the size of him he pushed so hard his seat started to rapidly slide to the very back of the cockpit". "I didn't think it rated an abort so I set the power myself and kept going - quietly giggling away". I think, if this really happened, having the F/E attempting to set and trim the thrust whilst you were opposing forward movement of the thrust levers was unsafe. Also since you would have been well below 80Kts when the F/E moved aft you should have aborted. If you were already at 80 Kts and had not yet set Takeoff thrust you should have aborted, as to not do so invalidates your performance calculations. Continuing with your F/E at the rear of the cockpit was neither safe nor funny. So please tell me what you find to be a "huge assumption" and/or "just plain wrong". You are, or so your profile tells us, a retired B747 Captain so no assumption there either.
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Old 17th Feb 2011, 05:22
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I can embarrass you here in public OF, or in private via PM.
Your choice.
I'd prefer via PM.
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Old 17th Feb 2011, 06:57
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Public or PM

You are the Captain, your decision. Either way I will not be embarrassed but I may learn something.
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Old 17th Feb 2011, 12:03
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18-Wheeler, lighten-up dear chap; this is a discussion... not a "slagging forum".

The perceptions of right or wrong are variable... especially within PPrune!

The playing of mind-games with other members of the crew doesn't promote good CRM. If you had a continuing problem with your F/E and that a chat over a beer couldn't resolve your percieved issue then go and see your Flight Manager to resolve it.

I'm with Old Fella on this one... it was wrong of you to attempt to "bully" your F/E into submission; besides which... given that he was now at the rear of the flight deck he was now totally out of the loop with respect to any take-off emergency (would you still be "grinning" if you'd encountered a problem?).

Having "stood-up" the thrust levers (throttles or whatever you wish to call them) you've theoretically proved that one (or more) of the engines aren't going to significantly lag. Therefore, after the call of "stable"... any lack of engine response to thrust lever advancement should then be cause for a "Stop".

Happy landings

TCF
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Old 17th Feb 2011, 12:29
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Therefore, after the call of "stable"... any lack of engine response to thrust lever advancement should then be cause for a "Stop
Why call "stable"? The pilots should see the power is stable by merely looking.
Reminds me of one experience where the airline 737 SOP was for the PNF to call "stable" when the captain had opened up to 40 percent N1 before pressing TOGA. The simulator instructor slipped a note to the PNF which said "do not call stable".

The captain opened up to 40 percent N1 with brakes released and the 737 started to roll. The F/O said nothing. Passing the 1000 ft touch down zone marker, the ground speed was 50 knots as the aircraft slowly accelerated down the runway under 40 percent N1. Still with hand on the throttles at 40 percent N1 and well into the roll the captain looked across to the F/O and said accusingly "you forgot to say "stable".

Of course by now the V1 speed was quite invalid.

Have observed same problem with the calls of V1 and VR. On countless occasions in the sim, if the PNF fails to call "rotate" the PF will not rotate even though his own ASI shows the aircraft passing through VR. Relying on a "support" call to commence an action such as described above, is asking for trouble
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Old 17th Feb 2011, 13:13
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Grounded27

I have allways been a firm believer when testing an engine to advance quickly up to where you think 80%n1 might be the set power from there. Better an engine stall before 80kts than when you need the motor and firewall it st save your arse.

Not a good idea to test out the stall margin of an engine with passengers aboard. Best to let the engineers do that against a company approved program. Engines have a tendancy to wear out quicker (lose stall margin) with rough handling
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Old 17th Feb 2011, 16:10
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A37575... you have to understand that I'm one of the "old school" of B747 operators where we carried a F/E; besides which, it was a "standard procedure".

So, your argument is that we shouldn't say anything at all? If the skipper hadn't responded to my call of "stable" I'd repeat it... but LOUDER!

Indirectly, your sim instructor telling you not to make what is a "standard call" resulted in an incident! Proving what?
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