Use of speed brakes in flight
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john_tullamarine, congratulations you have made me laugh. 
That at least explains it's use on some airline's were the pilots have flown less than competently.
That at least explains it's use on some airline's were the pilots have flown less than competently.
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Colin,As stated earlier, the primary reason for lift dumping is to get down in a hurry. During the certification process, transport category aircraft must be able to get down from max operating altitude to 10000 ft in a predicated amount of time. Can't remember the exact time, but if I recall correctly, there are two segments, first to FL250 and then to 10000ft. The DC-8 does not have "speed brakes" only ground spoilers, so to get down in a hurry, you need to use reverse thrust. The first time you see, feel and hear it, it definetly gets your attention.
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Hopefully I will never feel nor hear that occurring inflight. Does not sound an enjoyable prospect.
If any pilot is interested it was an approach into Zante which I experienced for the first time the use of speed brake's in flight. However the pilot was using them for about 30 seconds then taking them away again. Waiting a couple of minutes deploying them again, to them stow after about 30 seconds.
Sorry if this lacks terminology.
If any pilot is interested it was an approach into Zante which I experienced for the first time the use of speed brake's in flight. However the pilot was using them for about 30 seconds then taking them away again. Waiting a couple of minutes deploying them again, to them stow after about 30 seconds.
Sorry if this lacks terminology.
That at least explains it's use on some airline's were the pilots have flown less than competently.
Congratulations! You've managed to convince a young enthusiast that if he ever sees the SB used, it's because of pilot incompetence!!!!
In a perfect world, descent without recourse to the boards is great. In the real world, any number of unforeseen things can happen, and use of the brakes should not be discouraged. It's a flight control. It should be used as necessary.
I used to fly with a guy who was so caught with the "Brake up = F@@@ up" mentality that he would fly extra track miles rather than use the brakes, somehow believing that was more efficient.
After TOD, getting the aircraft on the ground as soon as possible is the most efficient thing to do. If circumstance leads to being high or fast, the Speed Brake is that most expeditious way to correct that. The MOST important thing is to achieve a stabilized approach, and attitudes that preclude using available controls to achieve that are dangerous.
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Speed brakes in flight normally are used with late descent clearances or late runway changes making a circling approach a straight in approach. They get used a lot if a pilot just gets too high on approach. They vibrate, depending on speed and flap setting, so are not comfortable for passengers. I try never to use them but sometimes you must.
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I fly A319/20/21's, only use Speed brakes regularly on the 319's as at certain weights it can sometimes be tricky to keep 160kts till 4d in flap 2. A trickle of speed break is better than using the gear as then you have an excess of drag and the power comes on. Better to be at idle all the way and then configure to be in the groove spooled up by 1000', checks complete and all above board. So there is nothing wrong with using a bit of speed break, but at the same time as most will say 3 times table works well for decent profile management and then plus 5-10 miles for slow down. But we're bombing around at cost index 10 at the mo so no need for extra to slow down, can't get much slower!
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Congratulations! You've managed to convince a young enthusiast that if he ever sees the SB used, it's because of pilot incompetence!!!!
Colsie, going into the Greek Islands is not only wonderfully scenic, but rapid descents are needed requiring SB several times. You came over Kephallonia which has an airport of its own and BIG mountains, so that was the need for the SB.
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Bubbers44, what you have said may have been what occurred coming into Zante. Maybe it is me and just being used to standard approaches, I think the only other approach like that I have been on board the aircraft is going into Faro.
Coming into Zante we had a strong crosswind and it appeared to be a hot and high approach 9I think that is what it is called), the pilot made several circling movements, which i thought was the holding pattern onto the runway.
Oh and rainbow has not convinvced me this. Just my expeirence with planes has been limited to flying on a 734 globepsan, 3x753 thomas cook and A321 First choice. And when I was younger I flew a couple of BA 757's. On each of those flights the pilots have been much more talkative to the cabin,a nd going over what ahs occured (well not in the globespan and some Thomas cook flight's). Oh i probbaly should not be mentioning the airline names, sorry if I am not meant to.
Coming into Zante we had a strong crosswind and it appeared to be a hot and high approach 9I think that is what it is called), the pilot made several circling movements, which i thought was the holding pattern onto the runway.
Oh and rainbow has not convinvced me this. Just my expeirence with planes has been limited to flying on a 734 globepsan, 3x753 thomas cook and A321 First choice. And when I was younger I flew a couple of BA 757's. On each of those flights the pilots have been much more talkative to the cabin,a nd going over what ahs occured (well not in the globespan and some Thomas cook flight's). Oh i probbaly should not be mentioning the airline names, sorry if I am not meant to.
RB,
Fair enough if you get it just right every time, but you are expecting your less experienced FO to be as good as you, whilst letting him know he'll get what-for if he doesn't measure up.
One go-around because he gets it wrong negates all the fuel savings you desire for a couple of years. One "Press-on" hot/high approach is potentially much worse!!
Given the choice between going for the ragged edge of efficiency or being a little conservative, I'll "Waist" the 15kg of fuel to ensure a safe outcome.
Fair enough if you get it just right every time, but you are expecting your less experienced FO to be as good as you, whilst letting him know he'll get what-for if he doesn't measure up.
One go-around because he gets it wrong negates all the fuel savings you desire for a couple of years. One "Press-on" hot/high approach is potentially much worse!!
Given the choice between going for the ragged edge of efficiency or being a little conservative, I'll "Waist" the 15kg of fuel to ensure a safe outcome.
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Sorry, but you're still not seeing the point! The aim is to avoid getting into the situation of using SB to begin with, not just not using them when needed. I sometimes make full and free use of them myself, but not when I could have avoided it altogether. Besides, their effectivenss below 250kts is limited. There is no arguing with dropping the gear early and sticking the nose down for that final rapid descent rather than poncing around with limited use speedbrake. The Malaga approach is the example.
Agreed RB, I just a little techy when people start talking about rolled up newspapers as CRM tools!!
A previous generation of Captains used to be very anal about the SB, with some justification as, has been pointed out, some early jets either prohibited their use or had nasty vibrations with them out. This often led to a certain "Intake of breath and roll of eyeballs" mentality whenever they were used, whether the result of a planning error or external factors, and I remember more than once a guy pushing a bad situation rather than simply chuching out the boards and getting back on glide.
So certainly, plan for the best and adapt to what happens, I'm just content to do so on the conservative side.
Perhaps a quiet word rather than sulking and swatting might be more PC in this day and age?
A previous generation of Captains used to be very anal about the SB, with some justification as, has been pointed out, some early jets either prohibited their use or had nasty vibrations with them out. This often led to a certain "Intake of breath and roll of eyeballs" mentality whenever they were used, whether the result of a planning error or external factors, and I remember more than once a guy pushing a bad situation rather than simply chuching out the boards and getting back on glide.
So certainly, plan for the best and adapt to what happens, I'm just content to do so on the conservative side.
Perhaps a quiet word rather than sulking and swatting might be more PC in this day and age?
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Nothing better than chucking out the speedbrakes at 340 knots in order to have a go at an unexpected straight in. They can be an excellent time saving device on occasions!
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Nothing better than chucking out the speedbrakes at 340 knots in order to have a go at an unexpected straight in. They can be an excellent time saving device on occasions!
About two years ago I was flying with a quite junior guy, and he was offered a hurried straight in...he looks at me and says...'what do you think?
I mention...'what do you think as you're flying?'
He declines the hurried straight-in approach...smart fellow.
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The company limitation for our 767-300ER aircraft is "do not land with speedbrakes deployed" We will get a warning light and beeper if the speedbrakes are deployed below 800 feet or with landing flaps down.
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411A.
Not entirely true anymore.
The little E-jet 170 uses DLC for steep approach. More for drag than lift control but it works in exactly the same way.
Not entirely true anymore.
The little E-jet 170 uses DLC for steep approach. More for drag than lift control but it works in exactly the same way.
Considering...it took 'em twenty five years to 'catch up'...good for them!
Lockheed was so far ahead of everyone else, without exception.
Fact.
Must add, with proper Rollers, of course.
RollsRoyce, the absolute best turbine engines going...fact.
Proven time and time ....again.
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Should be "free rein" Rainboe/ The reference is to equitation rather than empires
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And then some aircraft land with the speedbrake deployed.
Vulcan, RJs, Fokker 100 / 70, Buccaneer to name but a few.
Use of speedbrake reduces the minimum drag speed on approach, the engines have to be at a higher thrust setting which improves response in the event of a go around.
Vulcan, RJs, Fokker 100 / 70, Buccaneer to name but a few.
Use of speedbrake reduces the minimum drag speed on approach, the engines have to be at a higher thrust setting which improves response in the event of a go around.
