Mayday relay?

[double_barrel]

Randomly wandering over youtube links I was surprised to hear a recording of a BA crew informing ground of a fire on another a/c using "mayday, mayday, mayday".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIt6CDLrPOo (4'30")

In my world (commercial shipping) I would never call mayday on behalf of another vessel, because of the potential for confusion. We strictly use the phrase 'mayday relay' for that purpose. That is obvious if you are 'relaying' a mayday radio message on behalf of another vessel, but it is equally applicable if you see a visual distress signal or another vessel in distress.

Just wondering if you chaps use the same conventions?

[Piltdown Man]

The official phrase certainly used to be "Mayday Relay" but common sense also applies. It's the message that matters more than the word/s (missing).

[old,not bold]

IMHO, the word Relay is absolutely vital, at sea as in the air. Otherwise all sorts of confusion can ensue, not least from triangulation being done on the Mayday transmission.

All concerned really need to know that they are not talking to the ship/aircraft in distress but to an intermediary. The use of automatic location and calling systems does not change that; in fact it makes it all the more important if and when a human intervenes.

[noflynomore]

CAP413 says;

States of Emergency
8.2 The states of emergency are classifed as follows:
1. Distress A condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger and of requiring immediate assistance.
2. Urgency A condition concerning the safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or of some person on board or within sight, but does not require immediate assistance.
8.3 The pilot should start the emergency call with the appropriate international RTF pre x as follows:
1. Distress ‘MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY’
2. Urgency ‘PAN PAN, PAN PAN, PAN PAN’

There does not appear to be a facility to call MAYDAY on behalf of a third party though this is specifically allowed for in a PAN call.

As there is no mention of MAYDAY RELAY it implies that if a state of urgency/emergency is observed involving a third party then a PAN call is appropriate.

Notwithstanding that MAYDAY RELAY is standard maritime RT phreaseology it does not appear to be available in aviation-speak. I can see that this might present difficulties in states that do not recognise the use of PAN and MAYDAY RELAY is pretty clear in it's intention to a good speaker of English but it might well cause confusion in places where English is poorly understood. The risk is the controller, hearing MAYDAY $%^^&* and naturally assumes you yourself have an emergency (that is, after all, the sole and only meaning of the word MAYDAY in aviation speak) assigns a 7700 squawk and begins to act accordingly. Suddenly you've become the emergency and it'll take a great deal of effort to explain your way out of that and get the correct message across. Beware non-standard phraseology for this reason. Call PAN if you can, if not don't use any prefix, just pass a clear message. eg, "In this position I have observed..."

Further, if I heard "MAYDAY RELAY..." I'd assume someone had heard a MAYDAY go unanswered and was relaying it thus perhaps causeing further confusion - such as a call to the D & D cell to get the unheard non-existent call triangulated.

Surely the answer to this most unlikely scenario is to make a judgement at the time. Isn't that what you're there for?

[+TSRA]

It is certainly allowed here in Canada. As quoted from our version of CAP413:

6.16 Relay of a Distress Message
A distress message repeated by a station other than the station in distress shall transmit a signal comprising:

the signal "MAYDAY RELAY" (spoken three times);
the words "THIS IS";
the call sign of the station relaying the message (spoken three times);
the distress signal "MAYDAY" (once);
the particulars of the station in distress such as its location, nature of distress, number of persons on board, etc.
Example: MAYDAY RELAY, MAYDAY RELAY, MAYDAY RELAY
THIS IS
CESSNA NOVEMBER JULIETT INDIA
CESSNA NOVEMBER JULIETT INDIA
CESSNA NOVEMBER JULIETT INDIA
MAYDAY
PIPER FOXTROT X-RAY QUEBEC QUEBEC
STRUCK BY LIGHTNING
DITCHING AIRCRAFT
POSITION: 20 MILES EAST OF WINNIPEG
ALTITUDE: 1500 FEET
AIRSPEED: 125 KNOTS
HEADING: 270 DEGREES
ONE PERSON ON BOARD
PIPER FOXTROT X-RAY QUEBEC QUEBEC

Mayday Relay certainly makes sense in very remote locations where the distance between two stations may make the original Mayday call impossible to be heard by a controlling agency. It is not a phrase I would use over the eastern seaboard of the US, but it is something I would definately use over arctic Canada, Alaska, Africa, etc.

Surely the answer to this most unlikely scenario is to make a judgement at the time. Isn't that what you're there for?

As it goes for everything in aviation, but then you're left with the Monday morning Quarterbacks spending hours ripping apart a decision you had seconds to make - even though that was not the OPs intent.

Isn't our industry just great! lol

[noflynomore]

+TSRA, relaying an unheard MAYDAY is fine as said in my post above but the OP was asking about a self-generated call regarding someone else's percieved emergency.

I think the logic is in the name of the call - m'aidez! Help Me! - not "help him!"

[albatross]

JOKE Perhaps we could use the term "Mayhem" (helphim) instead of "Mayday" (helpme) JOKE Over.
In many parts of the world common sense will prevail ...in other locations use of any word , phrase or procedure not used everyday results "brain freeze" and in total confusion on the receiving end..."AKA 'Welcome to Africa' "

[Sepp]

Originally Posted by noflynomore

... There does not appear to be a facility to call MAYDAY on behalf of a third party though this is specifically allowed for in a PAN call ...

However, section 8 goes on to say in para 8.24:

"Any aeronautical station or aircraft knowing of an emergency incident may transmit a distress message whenever such action is necessary to obtain assistance for the aircraft or vessel in distress. In such circumstances, it should be made clear that the aircraft transmitting is not itself in distress."

and includes an example call, which begins:

MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY
Milthorpe Tower, G-ABCD, have intercepted MAYDAY from G-BJRD... (etc.)

[+TSRA]

noflynomore,

I would rather someone transmit a Mayday on my behalf if a situation is developing that I am not aware of, then sit back with popcorn in hand, watching the show. While I know this is akin to "stepping on ones toes," I'd prefer to have a laugh over the situation over a beer than be trapped in metal tube that is on fire wondering why everyone is not doing anything.

Mayday gets everyones attention, including mine.

[ImageGear]

For my radio license practical test in the sim I was tested on just such a scenario which although unscripted was entirely necessary since a few years later I operated as relay for the real thing with a successful outcome. My initial relay was subsequently taken over by a B727 orbiting at high altitude while I headed for home after being stood down.

Someone was lost over the desert as night descended but fortunately he walked away.

I expect it is still practiced in the sim as standard?

[double_barrel]

Interesting discussion. I guess it is a very rare situation in aviation, and recommended procedures seem ambiguous. And importantly mayday relay may not be readily understood because it is so rarely used. In contrast, it is very common at sea and I am sure any professional seafarer would instinctively and instantly use mayday relay in equivalent circumstances. Also, there is no doubt that the pace of comms and indeed the rate of development of an emergency, is MUCH slower at sea than in your world.

[deltahotel]

Indeed. I am an amateur yachtie and on the occasion that on a quiet training frequency I heard a crew call a mayday and ejecting, I went to distress frequency and broadcast a mayday relay.