Captain decisions

[downwindabeam]

Hello PPRUNE,

I'm going through captain training and was wondering what are some of the tricks you've learned along the way to make a better decision model tree? How to arrive to a more coordinated set of steps towards a return to airport in case of emergency? etc?

I seem to be forgetting one step along the way each time, or my decisions are a little loose instead of being compact and forming a stable building/block towards the solution.

Any input would be great.

Thanks!

PS - We're talking passenger, airline airplanes.

[redsnail]

This question is not really relevant for the Wannabes.

We use DORDAR. There are others like GRADE or PILOT.

Diagnose. What is the problem?
Options. Continue, hold, divert, return.
Risk/Benefits.
Decide.
Act.
Review. Review is the most important one. As more info becomes available, review your decision.

However I prefer DILDO.

Disbelief.
Insult
Laugh out loud
Damage
Over react.

[hollingworthp]

Post of the day!

However I prefer DILDO.

[beamer]

DownWind

Its called an 'aeroplane' dear boy not an 'airplane'.

Good Luck with the course

[Denti]

We used to use DODAR (back when BA owned the company), nowadays we use FORDEC.

Facts
Options
Risks/Benefits
Decision
Execution
Check

All of those CRM decision models are pretty similar and they all work well enough.

[adverse-bump]

AWNPAB

I got told this by an ex BA chap a week before my command course...best bit of advice I ever got given!

A ir traffic control (talk to em!)
W eather (get some!)
N ITS brief (ie brief the cc)
P A (pa to the pax)
A (as above)
B rief, the arrival

it helps me organise my thoughts.

[downwindabeam]

Okay Gents, I like the models, but gonna try to be more specific.

You takeoff and lose an engine you take the radios and ask your monitoring to troubleshoot. While he/she starts doing that you go ahead and tell ATC that you wanna stay around the airport for a subsequent return. Easy.

Now lets say you takeoff and get a caution thats not so cut and dry. You might end up coming back to the airport, you might just continue rendering it an indiction failure and monitor it the whole way. Do you right away declare that you'd like to stay in the vicinity of the departure airport? Do you tell them you want a slow speed while troubleshooting?

How do you decide when you start talking on the radio vs troublshooting all the while keeping in mind you don't want to get too far out from a good airport with good runways.

Thank you for all your replies!

Beamer: I'm afraid i'm part of those 'non civilized' ones ;-) [all in good spirits here!]

[hollingworthp]

Well part of your crew briefing would include your plans for immediate (smoke/fire etc) return and non-vital issues (typically following the SID to a suitable point to hold or OEIO procedure). This would be a discussion on the ground to prevent rushed decisions.

Numerous factor dictate your decision (ie weather, terrain, performance, maintenance locations, length of flight, takeoff alternates etc).

If time allows, any of the models above will do as they are all structured to help prevent the issue you stated in your initial post.

Also, unless you don't want/need ATC jabbering away in your ear while you handle some post-V1 issue, then make use of CRM and declare something, you can always downgrade later on and it helps them to know your intentions (as briefed). So even if you are too busy to get drawn in with them, at least say something like "Mayday mayday mayday, G-ABCD, engine fire, climbing straight ahead, Standby"

[VJW]

How about the old golden rule of aviate, navigate, communicate?

Why are people so fixated on calling a mayday, when flying the plane and fixing the problem is more important then telling ATC initially you have a problem.

In RYR we use PIOSEE, NITS, PA - which I think is pretty good at keeping it all coordinated.

P Problem
I Information
O Options
S Select (an option)
E Execute
E Evaluate

Once this is done, tell cabin crew using the NITS brief

N Nature of emergency
I Intentions
T Time available
S Special instructions (SOS/ditching demo etc)

Then PA to pax.

[Capt Pit Bull]

One thing to consider very carefully is who will handle the aircraft. I'm not quite sure what you are saying in your second post but there is a lot of virtue in having your first officer fly the aircraft, especially if the nature of the problem is not 'textbook', and especially if the automatics are compromised. The rationale is that handling the aircraft should be well within their capabilities but if you want a solid diagnosis of a serious problem you want the bloke with the best type/technical knowledge, without distractions. Generally this will be you.

Obviously lots of variable... some types I've flown need you to branch backwards and forwards between checklists for some of the more serious malfunctions. Managing that, along with radio interuptions, is a recipe for a screw up.

So, generally, I tend to give control and the radio to the F/O and then figure out what is going on. In radio terms, your f/o should be able to fight a holding action with ATC if necessary (You can take it back from them once your workload permits and your plan has firmed up enough to advise ATC, until then 'standby' ftw!).

A major priority is to figure out of anything is time critical and get the aircraft pointed in roughly the correct direction. So a 'plan version1' that either (a) points you back for an immediate landing or (b) points you back to the hold for an eventual landing or (c) points you at your takeoff alternate or (d) continues towards your intended destination needs to be made - quickly - and communicated to your f/o. Then just let them get on with it whilst you work the problem.

Checklists, briefing the cabin crew (don't be afraid to give them a warning order - you can always give them a full NITS brief later - a quick "we've got a problem, probably returning to XYZ, don't start the service, I'll call you back with more details when I can" may be golden in terms of getting a secure cabin promptly because otherwise trolleys, cutlery, bags etc will be coming out).

For "continue/return" decisions there will almost certainly be commercial issues so you will probably want to talk to company. I recommend doing this yourself - another good reason to have the f/o take the ATC and the handling, because ultimately its going to be your decision so the f/o will only have to relay to you anyway, might as well talk to the horses mouth.

Obviously in the event of severe handling difficulties you may need to fly yourself, or it could be a team effort (especially with flying control problems), but generally most emergencies can be flown by the f/o. Once you are all set up, you can then take control for the approach and landing, especially if there is anything 'non standard' about it. Your company may require you to land for any malfunction anyway.

But my main point is don't be in a rush to take control. Flying the aircraft is the easy bit, so let the f/o do it whilst you take responsibilty for analysis, planning and communication. The latter tasks are leadship ones which is why they pay you the big bucks (!?).

Just my point of view. Regardless, good luck. Thinking down here pays dividends up there.

[Exascot]

Flying the aircraft is the easy bit, so let the f/o do it whilst you take responsibilty for analysis, planning and communication

The best advice in this whole thread Capt PB

[Sciolistes]

Just a small niggle, the title of the thread should be "Crew Decisions"

Personally speaking, I don't think that planning on using GRADE, RADAR, DODAR, etc outside of the sim is particularly realistic. A serious issue, one for which such decision models are meant most for, seem to demand one to jump between problems, usually in a reactive manner somewhat incompatible with such anexpected workflow. However, I believe that such models burnt into the brain during many hours of armchair flying mean that, no matter what happens, you keep the various elements in mind, if not in quite the pattern that the trainer envisaged.

In making decisions, I believe one must be prepared to never loose sight of the big picture (obviously) and remain flexible. I certainly believe that flexibility is an issue with some guys, too many guys go into the sim trying to predict the events based on feedback, it makes me uncomfortable listening to somebody telling me what is going to happen. I find flexibility is facilitated by not anticipating the utilisation of a workflow, but to simply at all times, think in terms of plane, path and people and understand that the goal is to attain enough knowledge to make a decision and know that the decision is working for us.

Excellent post from Captian Pit Bull. The ability to make a decision is no more complex than simply understanding the options and the relative risk associated to each. This understanding can best be attained through shared and accurate situational awareness, i.e. disciplined CRM. It is too easy to hand over ATC and control to the other guy and then leave her behind. The handling guy still needs to be an integral part of the decision loop.

[Wirbelsturm]

but if you want a solid diagnosis of a serious problem you want the bloke with the best type/technical knowledge, without distractions. Generally this will be you.

Unless you were flying with the chap I flew with last week! An extremely experienced former Boscombe Test Pilot who knew just about everything about the aircraft and how/why it flies! Quite humbling but he is a thoroughly nice chap to boot!



Crew resources, utilise them dependant upon the experience on the day.

[alf5071h]

downwind, many of the acronyms used in decision-making training are extensions of problem solving routines. They do not represent the usual decision making practices required in aviation particularly where there are critical time or stress issues. However, acronyms provide a useful structure for learning the components and considerations required in actual decision making, which in its ultimate form is a skill.
Skills have to be developed and continuously refined with practice until the behaviour becomes natural.
Skilled behaviour is one indication of the difference between a novice (using decision aids) and an expert, however as there are few real ‘experts’ in aviation, practical decision-making often uses a mix of decision aids (rules, procedures), and expertise, depending on the situation, time, and resources available. See refs below.

Minimise your ‘tactical decisions’ with good planning, thinking ahead – strategic decision making – that’s more like problem solving, but not always with a real problem – what if.

Sciolistes - "Crew Decisions".
No, I disagree, particularly where as individuals we must take responsibility for our decisions – the Captain is always accountable. By all means solicit information and suggestions from the ‘crew’ or SOPs. The Captain then has to use his skills (experience) to balance influences, bias, or erroneous views from others; but the Captain always decides.

Practical refs:-

• Airline Command see – CRM
• Aviation dot org – see library presentations on ‘Making better decisions’ and the preceding ‘Critical thinking’, and ‘Gaining and maintaining situation awareness’. (free registration)
• Thinking Skills.
• Biases and Heuristics in Judgment and Decision Making.

Academic refs (but of value):-

• Errors in Aviation Decision Making.
• Naturalistic Decision Making.
• Naturalistic Decision Making in Aviation Environments.
• Human Intuition and Expertise.
• A new approach to aeronautical decision making.
• Time Critical Decision Making Models.
• Expert Decision-Making in Naturalistic Environments.
• The psychology decision making.
• Explanations for Seemingly Irrational Choices.

[Sciolistes]

but the Captain always decides.

I can't disagree with you really, because officially of course the Captain decides. But my view on leadership is a role that majors on responsibility and minors on authority. Although, the Captain is responsible for the decision, ideally it is a decision agreed by the crew. The Captain is responsible for ensuring decisions are effectively actioned in accordance with the aims and principles of CRM. A possible alternative is the Captian persuing a course of action differing with the FO's view, which would probably be an unhealthy state of affairs.

[BOAC]

Downwind, 2 things to take away from this thread -

1) Cpt PB's post cut, pasted and hung above your bed

2) Whatever 'structure' (if any) you apply to decision making - and many, many good pilots do NOT use a 'rigid' mnemonic but work intuitively - the MOST IMPORTANT THING is 'REVIEW'.


.....and good luck.

[downwindabeam]

Thank you Gentlemen for all your comments/suggestions!

[chai ja]

One taught to me by a close relative...

A ATC ?
B BACKEND - NITSS BRIEF
C COMPANY... NOTIFY ?
O OVERWEIGHT?
T TIME AND TCAS (TO BELOW )

Seems to work well

[777fly]

In any abnormal situation, and if it's available, maximize use of the autopilot. Many relatively easily managed emergencies have ended badly by trying to hand fly the aeroplane out of it.

[BOAC]

Originally Posted by 777fly

In any abnormal situation, and if it's available, maximize use of the autopilot.

- errm - would it not be best to wait for the results of the AF South Atlantic enquiry, just in case?