Graded Assertiveness Training Models
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Graded Assertiveness Training Models
Hi all -
Can anyone give me a potted summary of the various types of graded assertiveness protocols taught by airlines around the world? I'm assuming there are almost as many variations as there are airlines.
My understanding is that many airlines use a derivative of Besco's original 4-step P.A.C.E.(Probe-Alert-Challenge-Emergency) algorithm. I know Qantas had their own 4-step variant on this, but has since moved on to a 5-step version.
Other airlines I believe use a 3-step 'CUS' ('I am Concerned'/'I am Uncomfortable'/'This is a Safety Issue') protocol, but I don't know what airlines teach this. Does anyone know what Korean Airlines teach?
I have read elsewhere an author suggesting that someone is teaching pilots a 6-step algorithm, but I can't confirm the source. This seems like a lot of escalation to get to the point. Does anyone know if there's an airline that teaches a 6-step protocol?
To those of you familiar with various types, which is your preferred protocol?
Thanks
Can anyone give me a potted summary of the various types of graded assertiveness protocols taught by airlines around the world? I'm assuming there are almost as many variations as there are airlines.
My understanding is that many airlines use a derivative of Besco's original 4-step P.A.C.E.(Probe-Alert-Challenge-Emergency) algorithm. I know Qantas had their own 4-step variant on this, but has since moved on to a 5-step version.
Other airlines I believe use a 3-step 'CUS' ('I am Concerned'/'I am Uncomfortable'/'This is a Safety Issue') protocol, but I don't know what airlines teach this. Does anyone know what Korean Airlines teach?
I have read elsewhere an author suggesting that someone is teaching pilots a 6-step algorithm, but I can't confirm the source. This seems like a lot of escalation to get to the point. Does anyone know if there's an airline that teaches a 6-step protocol?
To those of you familiar with various types, which is your preferred protocol?
Thanks
Last edited by MrBrico; 23rd Nov 2010 at 08:24. Reason: Inaccuracy
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Let me rephrase the question...
Hello again -
Thank you for reading my post, but I was actually hoping for an answer or two...
Perhaps if I just ask a general question first:
If you work for a commercial airline, what graded assertiveness protocol were you taught/do you teach?
In particular, I'm interested in Asian and North American airlines.
Thanks
Thank you for reading my post, but I was actually hoping for an answer or two...
Perhaps if I just ask a general question first:
If you work for a commercial airline, what graded assertiveness protocol were you taught/do you teach?
In particular, I'm interested in Asian and North American airlines.
Thanks
Last edited by MrBrico; 25th Nov 2010 at 04:30.
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The problem with discussion of these schemes, I find, is that I often wonder if whilst the other guy was about to pile me in a mountainside I would be wondering what the E stood for.
Or whether just to take control if the other guy is task focussed and lost SA.
Get above safety altitude and discuss once safely on the ground if ANYONE has doubts. I have seen far too much ego from time to time from the other seat. If someone voices a concern, and its leaning towards the safer option, you HAVE to assume they are right and you are wrong.
Or whether just to take control if the other guy is task focussed and lost SA.
Get above safety altitude and discuss once safely on the ground if ANYONE has doubts. I have seen far too much ego from time to time from the other seat. If someone voices a concern, and its leaning towards the safer option, you HAVE to assume they are right and you are wrong.
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I love these threads....
Here's my take on CRM,....from the perspective of a pilot flying a Citation Encore Single pilot...
Level 1- Captain is that a mountain up ahead?
Level 2- Captain I think that is a mountain up ahead
Level 3- Captain I think we are headed into that mountain
Level 4- Captain we will hit that mountain in 5 minutes
Level 5- Captain if you don't change course, I am calling dispatch
Level 6- Captain, dispatch says you need to avoid the mountain
Level 7- Captain, the chief pilot says you need to avoid the mountain
Level 8 - Captain, the stewardess's and passengers took a vote and think you should avoid the mountain
Level 8 - Captain, I am considering taking the controls
Level 9- Captain, I am really, really considering taking the controls
Level 10- I don't mean to hurt your feelings but I am taking the controls
Level 11- Now that I have the controls, but only have 200 hours can you confirm I am on on the right heading and will not hit anything?
Level 1- Captain is that a mountain up ahead?
Level 2- Captain I think that is a mountain up ahead
Level 3- Captain I think we are headed into that mountain
Level 4- Captain we will hit that mountain in 5 minutes
Level 5- Captain if you don't change course, I am calling dispatch
Level 6- Captain, dispatch says you need to avoid the mountain
Level 7- Captain, the chief pilot says you need to avoid the mountain
Level 8 - Captain, the stewardess's and passengers took a vote and think you should avoid the mountain
Level 8 - Captain, I am considering taking the controls
Level 9- Captain, I am really, really considering taking the controls
Level 10- I don't mean to hurt your feelings but I am taking the controls
Level 11- Now that I have the controls, but only have 200 hours can you confirm I am on on the right heading and will not hit anything?
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So is the consensus then that Graded Assertiveness is nice in theory but not of any practical use to real pilots?
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CRM
Ever since the old TAA got into the CRM business there has been for and against or love or hate of CRM
In the earlier days it was often called " Sit in the bathtub and hold hands brigade". Air Niugini called it a Flight Crew Management Course and used the SARI categories (S:seek, A:act, R:react, I:inform )
In my own view, there is probably a need for some of it but in a real emergency where time is critical, you may not have enough seconds left to discuss things.
Tmb
In the earlier days it was often called " Sit in the bathtub and hold hands brigade". Air Niugini called it a Flight Crew Management Course and used the SARI categories (S:seek, A:act, R:react, I:inform )
In my own view, there is probably a need for some of it but in a real emergency where time is critical, you may not have enough seconds left to discuss things.
Tmb
Great thing about being single pilot, you're always right even if you're dead right!
--my first F-100 IP
Now, 1,400 hours of single pilot fighter time and a 1,000 of single pilot check hauling later, he was right. Since then, 7,000 hours with crews taught me, CRM can make the difference of being wrong and dead or right and alive. Now, address working with a crew, please
GF
--my first F-100 IP
Now, 1,400 hours of single pilot fighter time and a 1,000 of single pilot check hauling later, he was right. Since then, 7,000 hours with crews taught me, CRM can make the difference of being wrong and dead or right and alive. Now, address working with a crew, please
GF
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Focusing my question
Thank you Galaxy Flyer.
So - to redirect my question - to those of you who work in aircrews: Are you taught a Graded Assertiveness protocol in your CRM program? Which one?
So - to redirect my question - to those of you who work in aircrews: Are you taught a Graded Assertiveness protocol in your CRM program? Which one?
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The team concept...where you rely on the other guy to catch that increasing deck angle over Roselawn....catch the yoke, when you adjust your seat.....catch your approach stall going into Buffalo.....catch that firelight before you pull it off.......
Call for back up...man down...you watch my back, I'll watch yours......911..come quick......
25% of the casualties in Vietnam were from friendly fire...I would imagine that's about 12,000+ soldiers, who if we could ask their ghosts, might surmise in hindsight, that they would have been better off by themselves, and not needed the 'help'
Call for back up...man down...you watch my back, I'll watch yours......911..come quick......
25% of the casualties in Vietnam were from friendly fire...I would imagine that's about 12,000+ soldiers, who if we could ask their ghosts, might surmise in hindsight, that they would have been better off by themselves, and not needed the 'help'
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Uh thanks
That one was less funny, still unhelpful and a little scary.
There is no such thing as a 'team concept' the way you describe it. It's not an option. If there's more than one person in the cockpit, the reality is, you already have a 'team'. The only option you have is whether it's functional or dysfunctional. CRM, I thought, was about making functional teams the product of skill rather than luck and arrogance.
Not really sure how the 'friendly fire' analogy really relates to team dynamics, but after Tenerife, Dryden, Portland, Cove Neck and any number of other really relevant examples, do we really need to be re-explaining the rational basis of CRM to pilots on a Safety and CRM thread?
Back to my original question...
There is no such thing as a 'team concept' the way you describe it. It's not an option. If there's more than one person in the cockpit, the reality is, you already have a 'team'. The only option you have is whether it's functional or dysfunctional. CRM, I thought, was about making functional teams the product of skill rather than luck and arrogance.
Not really sure how the 'friendly fire' analogy really relates to team dynamics, but after Tenerife, Dryden, Portland, Cove Neck and any number of other really relevant examples, do we really need to be re-explaining the rational basis of CRM to pilots on a Safety and CRM thread?
Back to my original question...
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Brico - I don't think the team concept is a 'given'....you can choose to join an organization that pairs you off with a 200 HR pay to fly FO that you have to watch like a hawk, or walk jungle trails with an 18 year old PFC who has a non safetied M16 pointed at your back all day. Your call, I am making the choice to work with who I want, rather then working in a situation where most likely I have thrust upon me, someone that has just become a liability, not a help.
I am not sold on the pilot crew concept...as two pilot crews seem to keep dumping planes, with all of us wondering 'what the other guy was doing, when pilot #1 adjusted his seat, didn't flip the right switch' ect.
Ten years ago, the argument was a three person crew vs 2....it will go single pilot gentlemen, with maybe a UAV operator on the ground....
I am not sold on the pilot crew concept...as two pilot crews seem to keep dumping planes, with all of us wondering 'what the other guy was doing, when pilot #1 adjusted his seat, didn't flip the right switch' ect.
Ten years ago, the argument was a three person crew vs 2....it will go single pilot gentlemen, with maybe a UAV operator on the ground....
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You're probably right, johns7022, but until pilots are all replaced by drones, those aircrews that consist of more than one person in the cockpit (or in the plane for that matter) are going to be in teams, and the evidence suggests that that those teams who were not trained to communicate and coordinate their activities well have in the past flown into other planes, or into mountains, or run out of fuel, or not noticed there was too much ice on the wing, or forgotten to depressurise the doors after successfully landing a plane on fire, or not taken over command of the plane fast enough when the captain had a heart attack etc. etc. On the other hand other aircrews have saved hundreds of lives not just through good technical flying, but through communicating and working well together in a crisis. Do you really think that stuff comes naturally to everyone? I'd agree that some people can't be taught anything, and they probably shouldn't be pilots, but do you really think pilots who have to work in aircrews do not benefit from CRM training? I'm intrigued.
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Gimme a break
johns7022 and everyone, I just want to know what Graded Assertiveness protocol you were taught or what you teach, if any. PACE? CUS? Something else? 4-step? 3-step? Rhumba? Cha-Cha? We can debate if it's crap or not later. I'm trying to get a handle on the range of tools being taught - that's all. Please help.
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And then there is the polite first officer who observing the landing gear was still up at the outer marker says "would you like the gear down now captain - or would you prefer to concentrate on the instrument approach?