Delta engine failure-Prague
Thank you, ATC Watcher.
In addition, we must all remember that radio telecommunications are not high fidelity, nor are they necessarily clear of interference or distortion. Microphones are not always placed in the correct position, and can be half full of food and spit, so voices can be indistinct.
So "....callsign, we have a problem and are declaring an emergency", if subject to distortion or interference, might NOT be received clearly or unambiguously; potentially requiring the ATCO to ask "Callsign, Say again?", taking up precious pilot processing and time.
Whereas "MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY" Is short, simple, unambiguous and distinctive. Anyone hearing it, or part of it, will know what it is.
In addition, we must all remember that radio telecommunications are not high fidelity, nor are they necessarily clear of interference or distortion. Microphones are not always placed in the correct position, and can be half full of food and spit, so voices can be indistinct.
So "....callsign, we have a problem and are declaring an emergency", if subject to distortion or interference, might NOT be received clearly or unambiguously; potentially requiring the ATCO to ask "Callsign, Say again?", taking up precious pilot processing and time.
Whereas "MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY" Is short, simple, unambiguous and distinctive. Anyone hearing it, or part of it, will know what it is.
I simply don't understand the resistance to change from "declaring an emergency" to standard aviation phraseology (PAN PAN or MAYDAY). Defending an unwillingness to change among crusty senior citizens like me doesn't wash either. I don't care how old I am; if the CP sends down an SOP change which requires me to say "Positive Climb" instead of "Positive Rate" or similar, I'm damn well going to change what I say so that anyone sitting beside me (or listening to my radio call) will understand what I mean. Change is the only constant in life - even for pilots. Time to get over ourselves and stop rowing upstream.
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Words mean things, and "should" does not mean must or shall...
The French pilot understood it was an emergency and asked about vacating the runway.
The pilot explained what the emergency was faster than he could have said "mayday, mayday, mayday." And everyone was safely on the ground a few minutes later. What did he do wrong?
The French pilot understood it was an emergency and asked about vacating the runway.
The pilot explained what the emergency was faster than he could have said "mayday, mayday, mayday." And everyone was safely on the ground a few minutes later. What did he do wrong?
And why is the immediate response to a Mayday call an inane request for number of souls on board and fuel remaining?
No it's not, the world over would call "PAN PAN PAN PAN PAN PAN, Tower, Delta XXX Engine Failure, Maintaining Runway Track, standby for further information". Done in the sim x 3 every 6 months. What do you guys do??
The point is it doesn't matter what the controller says, you then immediately call Mayday (or Pan). ATC can then decide what to do with you; stay on Tower or go to Dep.
The point is it doesn't matter what the controller says, you then immediately call Mayday (or Pan). ATC can then decide what to do with you; stay on Tower or go to Dep.
If only you could stay as calm as this crew did
The problem was handled competently and with a minimum of fuss
Aviation is an INTERNATIONAL activity - derogation from internationally agreed procedures to satisfy individualism or false bravado is to be expected from rebellious teenagers ... the aviation community claims a much more responsible attitude !
Complacency
Success brings with it the danger of complacency.
Judging the outcome (safe, success) could range from 'good enough' to 'could be better'; this judgement can influence behaviour in future situations.
In our currently safe industry we must continue to learn, particularly from success. Learning relates to how we choose to frame 'success'; good enough, or could be better.
Those who believe 'good enough', at a given time, in context, can suffer surprise over time: cf regulator viewpoint - 737Max.
Todays good enough will not be sufficient Tomorrow.
Uplink, ATC, CJ,
Judging the outcome (safe, success) could range from 'good enough' to 'could be better'; this judgement can influence behaviour in future situations.
In our currently safe industry we must continue to learn, particularly from success. Learning relates to how we choose to frame 'success'; good enough, or could be better.
Those who believe 'good enough', at a given time, in context, can suffer surprise over time: cf regulator viewpoint - 737Max.
Todays good enough will not be sufficient Tomorrow.
Uplink, ATC, CJ,
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I think the Brits have soon chased every American pilot away from this forum... 
Whenever an ATC recording is posted you just know what the discussion will be about.
Whenever an ATC recording is posted you just know what the discussion will be about.
BTW, at the time of the 810 accident, the local controller had nearly 30 years experience as an FAA air traffic controller.
I simply don't understand the resistance to change from "declaring an emergency" to standard aviation phraseology (PAN PAN or MAYDAY). Defending an unwillingness to change among crusty senior citizens like me doesn't wash either. I don't care how old I am; if the CP sends down an SOP change which requires me to say "Positive Climb" instead of "Positive Rate" or similar, I'm damn well going to change what I say so that anyone sitting beside me (or listening to my radio call) will understand what I mean. Change is the only constant in life - even for pilots. Time to get over ourselves and stop rowing upstream.
All the big carriers in the US (that I'm aware of, at least) now beat us over the head to use MAYDAY in these situations - including domestically - and we certainly now say it in the sim every time.
Why this crew didn't use it here I don't know, but it's not necessarily intentional noncompliance.
RMOAS
That restored the quiet, if not the peace.
Aviate, navigate, communicate. Bernoulli, Magellan, Marconi/Tesla- in that order- wannabes griping comms means we had a good day...
Last edited by moosepileit; 7th Sep 2023 at 08:28.
Aviate, navigate, communicate.
... "E......N** descend two four zero zero" Crew receiving that (on a non-precision approach !) descended to 400' !. They died in the 747, of which, they were in charge. Which of the 3 basic aviation tenets would have "meant that they had a better day"
As one of those who started aviation comms using ABLE, BAKER etc. with 'PATCASATNI' being the distress imperative, I am at a loss to understand the seeming inability/reluctance/ bloody-mindedness which makes today's simplicity of 'MAYDAY' or, even fewer syllables, 'PAN', so difficult for one particular section of the industry to cope with !
An easily arranged visit to the D&D cell or its equivalent would possibly offer better professional value than vain attempts to lower one's handicap !
... "E......N** descend two four zero zero" Crew receiving that (on a non-precision approach !) descended to 400' !. They died in the 747, of which, they were in charge. Which of the 3 basic aviation tenets would have "meant that they had a better day"
As one of those who started aviation comms using ABLE, BAKER etc. with 'PATCASATNI' being the distress imperative, I am at a loss to understand the seeming inability/reluctance/ bloody-mindedness which makes today's simplicity of 'MAYDAY' or, even fewer syllables, 'PAN', so difficult for one particular section of the industry to cope with !
An easily arranged visit to the D&D cell or its equivalent would possibly offer better professional value than vain attempts to lower one's handicap !
Last edited by Cornish Jack; 7th Sep 2023 at 10:53.
Aviate, navigate, communicate.
... "E......N** descend two four zero zero" Crew receiving that (on a non-precision approach !) descended to 400' !. They died in the 747, of which, they were in charge. Which of the 3 basic aviation tenets would have "meant that they had a better day"
As one of those who started aviation comms using ABLE, BAKER etc. with 'PATCASATNI' being the distress imperative, I am at a loss to understand the seeming inability/reluctance/ bloody-mindedness which makes today's simplicity of 'MAYDAY' or, even fewer syllables, 'PAN', so difficult for one particular section of the industry to cope with !
An easily arranged visit to the D&D cell or its equivalent would possibly offer better professional value than vain attempts to lower one's handicap !
... "E......N** descend two four zero zero" Crew receiving that (on a non-precision approach !) descended to 400' !. They died in the 747, of which, they were in charge. Which of the 3 basic aviation tenets would have "meant that they had a better day"
As one of those who started aviation comms using ABLE, BAKER etc. with 'PATCASATNI' being the distress imperative, I am at a loss to understand the seeming inability/reluctance/ bloody-mindedness which makes today's simplicity of 'MAYDAY' or, even fewer syllables, 'PAN', so difficult for one particular section of the industry to cope with !
An easily arranged visit to the D&D cell or its equivalent would possibly offer better professional value than vain attempts to lower one's handicap !
State rules in US/FAA are not mayday/pan based. Law of primacy makes us ESL when ICAO and the chit hits the fan.
Simple planetwide ICAO ATC phrase concept in one breath- Mayday if outcome in doubt and it closes the airspace for just lil old you, Pan Pan for what you know you need. Upgrade/Downgrade as needed, normal ops can be restored for all but hijack. This is also for Asia weather diverts if ATC is "unable" and CBs tower hail over your route.. Don't use to or too, just two. Dont use for, just four. Descending, Climbing, maintaining, always. Don't use left or right in Asia, just cardinals and avoid degrees heading requests, find waypoints downrange or use offsets and cardinals from cleared route. ATC can say left or right, their choice. Always know the FIR boundary names on your route for the current controller, and the next far FIR boundary name and eta when checking in. Sometimes you check in early for air defense/country clearance, sometimes you check out behind you- mind the enroute chart "ball" notes.
How's that? Mind the states with low transtion altitudes and layers- miss it in low wx with low pressure and chit happens. Forgetting the altimetry, rules, being tired or stressed and setting the wrong qnh will get you close to a record tie flor low alt, sloppy radios won't help.
Flying Tiger's flt 66 1989 KL accident had a dozen links in the chain, R/T being far down the list. More recently and appropriate to this diversion is the CDG french to English qnh blunder- 23 May 2022, D8-4311 ARN - CDG.
Last edited by moosepileit; 7th Sep 2023 at 11:45.
Nice try.
Only half a speed-brake
Thus, the controllers who apparently don't understand live:
a) in your mind
b) in the USoA
c) both a+b.
Can be a crowded place.
Only half a speed-brake
Only half a speed-brake
Only half a speed-brake
Sorry for the bitchy posts above, just listened to the whole video above and the sadness is deep. Off for a bucketload of icecream.