Rules about pilots leaving the flight deck?
Thread Starter
Rules about pilots leaving the flight deck?
A short while ago, on a couple of Easyjet flights, the FO left the flight deck and their place was not taken by a member of cabin crew. In one case the FO was chatting for more than 30 minutes. On disembarking it seemed that there were only two crew on the flight deck so, presumably, only one person was on the important side of the door for an extended period. The response to an enquiry to the CAA was that EJ SOPs permitted there to be only one flight crew member and that there was no requirement for a CC member to occupy the empty seat when one of the pilots was in the cabin.
I've been away from aviation for a while now, but I found this surprising. I had thought that, after German Wings and another incident that I can't immediately recall, it was a requirement for two people to be on the flight deck at all times. Is this is not the case then how do they propose to deal with incapacitation or "strange" behaviour?
HFD
I've been away from aviation for a while now, but I found this surprising. I had thought that, after German Wings and another incident that I can't immediately recall, it was a requirement for two people to be on the flight deck at all times. Is this is not the case then how do they propose to deal with incapacitation or "strange" behaviour?
HFD
The CAA are correct, the crews were following procedure. Two crew aren’t required at all times.
All UK airlines (that I know of) no longer follow the two crew rule which was brought in as a reaction following Germanwings. However it brings its own risks and with different standards of medical oversight in the UK the least risk option has been subsequently deemed to leave the one pilot on his/ her own.
All UK airlines (that I know of) no longer follow the two crew rule which was brought in as a reaction following Germanwings. However it brings its own risks and with different standards of medical oversight in the UK the least risk option has been subsequently deemed to leave the one pilot on his/ her own.
Did you make the inquiry to the CAA?
Are you a journalist?
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It’s silly really , I know of 2 UK airlines that still do this procedure.
1. It basically says they don’t trust you on your own
2. Lots of the cabin crew put in the flight deck are very junior and have only just passed a security clearance (if at all….)
3. God forbid it happened again ! But do you really think a young 18 year old would stop a 200lb extremist.
a chilling thought but interesting
1. It basically says they don’t trust you on your own
2. Lots of the cabin crew put in the flight deck are very junior and have only just passed a security clearance (if at all….)
3. God forbid it happened again ! But do you really think a young 18 year old would stop a 200lb extremist.
a chilling thought but interesting
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In today's two man crew aircraft(Tomorrow's aircraft may be different) pilot should not be outside cockpit longer than absolutely necessary. There's is case long time ago in B737 Kosovo to London FL370 where Capt was in his seat talking to a passenger and copilot was the PF preparing for descent and sudden decompression took place. Copilot put on the mask and informed captain who asked the passenger to return to her seat and tried to put his mask on but his specs got dislodged, by the time he located them he passed out. The copilot called for SFA who had already noted passenger masks dropping. She realising something serious had happened she removed her masks and charged into cockpit without portable mask. In the cockpit copilot frantically indicated her put mask on the captain but before she could do that she herself passed out. They only recovered below 20000ft. If this was to happen on the EJ flight the FO will pass out. EMER DES is a serious emergency requires two pilots in the seat.
However keeping cabin crew cannot prevent German wing repeat because he cannot prevent suicidal pilot from putting aircraft on the back. In JAL B737 copilot accidentally used rudder trim instead of door unlock and aircraft went on the back.
However keeping cabin crew cannot prevent German wing repeat because he cannot prevent suicidal pilot from putting aircraft on the back. In JAL B737 copilot accidentally used rudder trim instead of door unlock and aircraft went on the back.
Gender Faculty Specialist
Thread Starter
Thanks for the replies.
I'm aware of the relevant risks (medical incapacitation, decompression, mental disturbance, and CC members having less security checks) but believed that the risk-benefit-likelihood debate had resulted in a decision that the lowest overall risk was achieved with two people in front of the locked door at all times. Easyjet's answer to the enquiry was that CC were having to spend too much time away from their core duties. As SLF I would prefer that a CC member was able to unlock the door if needed, rather than trying to sell me things that I don't want.
Consol: Yes "empty seat" was a poor choice of words. No, I'm not a journalist (I'm a retired FE).
HFD
I'm aware of the relevant risks (medical incapacitation, decompression, mental disturbance, and CC members having less security checks) but believed that the risk-benefit-likelihood debate had resulted in a decision that the lowest overall risk was achieved with two people in front of the locked door at all times. Easyjet's answer to the enquiry was that CC were having to spend too much time away from their core duties. As SLF I would prefer that a CC member was able to unlock the door if needed, rather than trying to sell me things that I don't want.
Consol: Yes "empty seat" was a poor choice of words. No, I'm not a journalist (I'm a retired FE).
HFD
We are no robots. Social interactions are healthy and necessary. Yet some people still find it normal a pilot has to stay on the flightdeck for 6 hours to prevent... wait what? suicide? We should try to impose this on people in offices. Don't leave for more than 30 minutes, don't dare to talk to someone longer than 15 minutes when venturing of the door. Newspapers would be full of it...
Be happy this happens. Be happy we get along and talk to other people... it's healthy. It's natural. For some reason people still find it acceptable a pilot has to stay up front in his seat for 4-8 hours, doomed to talk by only looking left or right and having to listen to a code before he allows somebody in on the flightdeck?
Also, passengers are advised to get up and stretch their legs for health reasons... no wait, "people flying commercially" are advised to get up and stretch their legs. And that means passengers & crew.
Last edited by BraceBrace; 6th Mar 2023 at 12:14.
Rt Hon Jim, you have it in one. A pilot's job is on the flight deck, not chatting up the crew. Absence from the flight deck should be kept to an absolute minimum in 2 crew operations, to reduce risk.
I still believe in a CC being on the flight deck on a two crew aircraft when one crew takes a physiological break. The CC assist is not there to fight a murder suicide, they are there to communicate to the rest of the crew that the single pilot is no longer functioning, for whatever reason.
Airlines have opposed pilot's unions on this, and won for purely financial reasons. Until the next incapacitation/murder-suicide, when they will have to do a couple of years penance in safety mode and bring the CC back.
Sometimes I despair of this industry...
Added as Brace brace got in ahead of me.
Yes you do. That is your job, day or night. If you need to get lower limb blood flow, exercise behind your seat. Social interactions are for after work. If you are bored with it, get a different job. Act like a professional and maybe the travelling public will think you are one.
I still believe in a CC being on the flight deck on a two crew aircraft when one crew takes a physiological break. The CC assist is not there to fight a murder suicide, they are there to communicate to the rest of the crew that the single pilot is no longer functioning, for whatever reason.
Airlines have opposed pilot's unions on this, and won for purely financial reasons. Until the next incapacitation/murder-suicide, when they will have to do a couple of years penance in safety mode and bring the CC back.
Sometimes I despair of this industry...
Added as Brace brace got in ahead of me.
<For some reason people still find it acceptable a pilot has to stay up front in his seat for 4-8 hours, doomed to talk by only looking left or right and having to listen to a code before he allows somebody in on the flightdeck?>
Thread Starter
BraceBrace:
"more than 30 minutes" was accurate, not a figure of speech.
I agree that pilots should not be thought of as "robots", but I suggest that part of the job is dealing with emergencies and that this is better done with both of them on the right side of the door.
HFD
"more than 30 minutes" was accurate, not a figure of speech.
I agree that pilots should not be thought of as "robots", but I suggest that part of the job is dealing with emergencies and that this is better done with both of them on the right side of the door.
HFD
I fly a 737. You'll be electrocuted, crash and die if you try that.
Also, I will tell my copilot we are not allowed to have social interactions. Some might like that. Strange enough, those are also the ones I'd rather not leave behind on their own on the flightdeck.
Also, I will tell my copilot we are not allowed to have social interactions. Some might like that. Strange enough, those are also the ones I'd rather not leave behind on their own on the flightdeck.
BraceBrace:
"more than 30 minutes" was accurate, not a figure of speech.
I agree that pilots should not be thought of as "robots", but I suggest that part of the job is dealing with emergencies and that this is better done with both of them on the right side of the door.
HFD
"more than 30 minutes" was accurate, not a figure of speech.
I agree that pilots should not be thought of as "robots", but I suggest that part of the job is dealing with emergencies and that this is better done with both of them on the right side of the door.
HFD
Mind you, I have worked for a company that has requested to put on oxygen masks when the second pilot is out on a walk. It can get pretty strange up front...
Controversial, moi?
If this was to happen on the EJ flight the FO will pass out.
EMER DES is a serious emergency requires two pilots in the seat.
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As already said, absence from the flight deck shall be kept to the minimum required time mandated by physiological needs. Anything else is simply unprofessional.
I am also a supporter of having a cabin crew in the flight deck while the other pilot is out for two reasons mainly: 1) incapacitation. Some authorities do not require the emergency door code to be tested at all. The day you need it, it should work but what if it does not? Having a cabin crew in the flight triggering an alarm and opening the door could be vital.
2) limiting the visits to the loo and to the loo only. I also had FOs (and probably FOs had their captains-don’t want to start an argument here) chilling in the forward galley and leaving me for an extended period of time by myself in the FD, worst part of this is it has happened on long haul 2 men ops crew flights at night. With cabin crew in the FD, who’ll need to go back to their duties after a reasonable amount of time the other pilot will have to come back before the purser gets pissed off.
My 2c.
I am also a supporter of having a cabin crew in the flight deck while the other pilot is out for two reasons mainly: 1) incapacitation. Some authorities do not require the emergency door code to be tested at all. The day you need it, it should work but what if it does not? Having a cabin crew in the flight triggering an alarm and opening the door could be vital.
2) limiting the visits to the loo and to the loo only. I also had FOs (and probably FOs had their captains-don’t want to start an argument here) chilling in the forward galley and leaving me for an extended period of time by myself in the FD, worst part of this is it has happened on long haul 2 men ops crew flights at night. With cabin crew in the FD, who’ll need to go back to their duties after a reasonable amount of time the other pilot will have to come back before the purser gets pissed off.
My 2c.
I am very surprised and alarmed to learn that apparently UK airlines no longer require two on the FD at all times (I'm of course including CC as one of the two in the case of a bathroom break). How quickly we forget. Let's not forget that there have been suspected suicides since Germanwings. Suicide in general has been on the increase since 2021, and a large majority are men.