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Old 30th Jun 2016, 14:28   #1521 (permalink)
 
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Flydubai pilot to be laid to rest - Cyprus Mail Cyprus Mail

Sad...may they all RIP


I hope the official report outlines specifically who/what was at fault. There will be many causes leading up to this crash, not just one!
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Old 30th Jun 2016, 16:39   #1522 (permalink)
 
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Looking at OKCs post with the extract from the Boeing Manual , I am tempted very naively with a lot of tongue in cheek to say that far from helping the pilot a long list of 'If this do that ' alternative options, some of which could have dire consequences if misunderstood seem to be less rather than more help to a pilot going around than pull back a bit, push thrust leavers a good way forward and adjust both till you see say ten degrees nose up and positive climb.

Not belittling anyone as I have the greatest respect for all FD crew and to be in a situation like this, tired, in dead of night and poor weather must be horrible. However reading this thread and others , Asiana T7 , Turkish 738 it seems that the number of mods and options and conditional actions on the automatics seem to be making these situations worse rather than better
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Old 30th Jun 2016, 19:15   #1523 (permalink)
 
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pax britanica on this thread every conceivable speculation has been debated and discussed to complete exhaustion. Any suggestion that automatics may be exacerbating the incidence of aviation accidents is not supported by those cited. There is very little communality in the majority of air accidents, each and every one involves a unique and lengthy chain of complex events. That is the sole communality to all air accidents. Never one that can be reduced to a single factor.
The outstanding feature in this instance is the large pitch down moment applied to a large aircraft at low level, at high energy and inertia. That seems to be the sum total of the facts known so far.
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Old 10th Aug 2016, 09:17   #1524 (permalink)
 
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We get another "leak" today. Some "source" inside investigation body suggested that Cpt. deliberately moved HS to dive position and "he was completely aware about a/c position and his intentions and speak in calm and self confident voice".

interfax

No new information on IAC page yet since May.
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Old 10th Aug 2016, 09:51   #1525 (permalink)
 
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Kulverstukas, due to my poor translation of the article, would you clarify: is the inference that these action were due to fatigue and loss of situational awareness by the captain or is it implying he deliberately flew her into the ground.
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Old 10th Aug 2016, 10:18   #1526 (permalink)
 
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Chronus

I am not suggesting automatic flight control features are a cause of more accidents what iwas trying to say is that it seems that recently most of the accidents that have happened ( and I fully accept that autoflight systems have probably prevented very many more) may be due to nuances/subtlties, call them what you will where some element of autoflight behaviour previously unknown or an ambiguity has been a causal factor in those incidents that have taken place.
Posts on this forum regulary highlight differences in undertanding with what the aircraft will do when button x is pushed pulled or turned in different circumstances. SoI am not criticising the concept or its applciation but it does seem to me that perhaps training lags a little behind reality in developing procedures to ensure that what is supposed to happen really does and how crews can develop motor memory skills and actions that ensure that things like pressing TOGA buttons means the engines spool up and not that they spool up except when condition x is present and in that case they immediately spool down again.

And I would repeat that i am not criticising anyone here especially flight crews who I have the utmost respect for working under pressurised and mentally and physically tiring conditions
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Old 10th Aug 2016, 10:32   #1527 (permalink)
 
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unworry,
Quote:
is the inference that these action were due to fatigue and loss of situational awareness by the captain or is it implying he deliberately flew her into the ground.
in the article it implies the second, with reference to fatigue problems and Cpt decision to leave FD as sidenote.

UPD: IAC dismissed this. "IAC is not the source of this information, investigation is carried on".

Last edited by Kulverstukas; 10th Aug 2016 at 12:03.
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 18:41   #1528 (permalink)
 
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Interim report published.

http://mak-iac.org/upload/iblock/ecd...FDN%20(en).pdf
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 20:53   #1529 (permalink)
 
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Didn't know this was possible:
Page 6: "automatic retraction of flaps from 15 to 10 at a speed of over 200 knots" ... "decrease in engine thrust within 3 seconds resulted in decreasing speed and flaps extension to 15".. "crew inputs to regain maximum takeoff/go- around thrust led to speed increase and reiterated automatic flaps retraction to 10"
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 22:56   #1530 (permalink)
 
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Flap overspeed protection at work?
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Old 20th Mar 2017, 23:24   #1531 (permalink)
 
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Thanks for you response in August, Kulverstukas

From the report:

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Old 21st Mar 2017, 07:09   #1532 (permalink)
 
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Skijob, SP versions have flap load relief from Flap 10 to 40..
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 13:22   #1533 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Super VC-10 View Post
Wasn't it published in 2016?
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 13:26   #1534 (permalink)
 
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12 seconds of trim with the flaps extended takes you to full nose down, or very close to it.
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 13:58   #1535 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kulverstukas View Post
Wasn't it published in 2016?
Yes, little has changed since April 2016, but someone has to give the hamster wheel a push

MAK are still working on final report ...

The Interstate Aviation Committee (IAC) - official website
Quote:
20 march 2017

...
The Investigation team has collected all necessary factual information and is currently completing its detailed analysis with participation of experts of the involved States in order to develop a draft Final Report.
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 21:04   #1536 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Avenger View Post
Skijob, SP versions have flap load relief from Flap 10 to 40..
Unaware of that, thanks for info!
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Old 21st Mar 2017, 23:38   #1537 (permalink)
 
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So, 2 possibilities. Total & utter crew incompetence, which we can mitigate by introducing illusions involving the inner ear/fatigue/whatever . . . or, Boeing are very glad to adopt that , thanks very much. Frankly, no matter how tired/disorientated, I find it difficult to imagine any reasonably experienced crew member holding forward Stab-trim input for 12 sec, but, I haven't flown a FlyDubai roster. . . . . . .
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Old 22nd Mar 2017, 01:11   #1538 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
which we can mitigate by introducing illusions involving the inner ear/fatigue/whatever
Personal opinion only; but I wish I had a dollar for every time I see speculation that sensory illusions cannot be counted out as a contributory cause of IMC crashes. In most of the IMC/night accidents one reads about in accident reports, it seems a good bet that questionable basic instrument flying skills has a lot to do with these sort of prangs.

Re the Fly Dubai accident, I have seen pilots occasionally "freeze" on the 737 stab trim button during simulator training where a low altitude stall recovery was attempted while replicating the Turkish Airlines Amsterdam crash.

That was where the autothrottles went to idle during an auto-coupled ILS and the autopilot tried to fly the ILS glide slope and the stab trim had automatically wound slowly back to almost full aft by the time the aircraft stalled.

In this case, on the application of GA thrust and subsequent very strong pitch up (combination of high thrust and lots of back stab trim) strong forward elevator accompanied by forward stab trim action is required by the pilot to avoid an unusual attitude problem.

It is then we occasionally observe the pilot inadvertently keeping his thumb pressed hard on the stab trim button and in the heat of the moment forget to stop trimming. The usual result is the climb turns into a bunt and steep dive with no hope of recovery at that low altitude.
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Old 23rd Mar 2017, 16:46   #1539 (permalink)

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Quote:
but, I haven't flown a FlyDubai roster. . . . . . .
I have.

I have had rosters very similar to the poor FO who died at Rostov, and on one flight was so tired I managed to forget the phonetic alphabet and even struggled to read our callsign back to ATC. Until you have experienced that level of fatigue, you cannot appreciate just how much it drains your capacity - and how reliant you are on the person sat next to you.

Many of us felt it was only a matter of time. Just put two equally fatigued pilots together in the middle of the night, throw in some bad weather and/or non normals and you're rolling the dice. It could have been me on that flight, or any of my mates. My only surprise was that it happened at Rostov - I can think of at least half a dozen places on the FZ network more likely to witness a smoking hole.

There but for the grace of God.
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Old 23rd Mar 2017, 19:01   #1540 (permalink)
 
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G60: Am I forgetting, but were they rostered for an out & back? Your suggesting they so were knackered for this approach, perhaps, but they still had the return sector to complete? Is that correct?
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