Asiana runway excursion in Hiroshima

[CodyBlade]

Very lucky not down embankment.

[skyhighfallguy]

peekay4

Your analysis is very interesting and not to be dismissed.

There is something about night illusions, non prec apch, and the big thing,crew coordination.

I will assume no HUD on the 'bus. Some airlines have very specific callouts of speed and sink rate, even altitude, after you leave the MDA for the runway.

PF is looking out window, PNF (PM to you , you know who you are ) inside monitoring instruments. Throw in visual miscues at night and local situations such as runway slope and BAM.

There is also a subconscious effort to maintain visual contact even if it means ducking under.

I would like to know if the crew had done many (at least 100) real non precision or purely visual approaches. IF the only nonprec apchs were in the sim, well, time to rethink the specifications, IE, time to PROHIBIT Non Precision approaches for this airline.


While there are similarities to the air canada thing, the weather is significantly different as some have already mentioned.

[Lookleft]

time to PROHIBIT Non Precision approaches for this airline.

How about thinking of it a different way, time to train pilots to cope with an NPA as a routine operation?

[VR-HFX]

PK4

RJOA elev is 1,086' which may explain why FR24 data ceased.

NPA in iffy visibility. This is one of the few airports in the region that is not at or near sea level.

QNH 1006 - 1013 = -7X30=-210'

Not saying this happened but the old adage did spring to mind.

[de facto]

Possibly the Asiana chaps misinterpreted " dive and drive " and transposed it as " drive and dive "!

Back to your cave .

[Hempy]

Originally Posted by Lookleft

time to PROHIBIT Non Precision approaches for this airline.

How about thinking of it a different way, time to train pilots to cope with an NPA as a routine operation?

Something needs to change, or they are going to run out of aeroplanes...

[fireflybob]

Some more pictures here

Asiana plane skids off runway at Hiroshima, Japan

[jolihokistix]

Fleshed out some more in Japan Today
Asiana plane hit antenna on runway, footage shows ? Japan Today: Japan News and Discussion

and Bloomberg
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...-no-fatalities

[Stone_cold]

CAN 737 .

Yet they (Air Canada) still managed to screw it up ! It is amazing that excuses fly in when it is a Western carrier involved in any incident yet , the other regions of the world are convicted immediately , be it culture ,training etc. If it was that bad , no one forced them ( AC ) to land . " A superior pilot uses his superior judgement to avoid situations which the use of his superior skill " Frank Borman .

Curious that several North American carriers cant seem to keep in on the pavement recently , but they are experienced and superior , aren't they??!

Also , you advise time will tell and you proffer a windshear scenario , yet you imply that this one cannot be compared . I guess you already have your judgement in on this one ( Asiana ) after only a few hours . Maybe you should heed your own advice .

[Koan]

Asiana plane skids off runway at Hiroshima, Japan - BBC News

2 good pics on the BBC Asia article.

[jolihokistix]

According to this (Yahoo, in Japanese, but it is upcoming news in the pipeline), the control tower felt no stress or tension in their spoken communication with the pilot during approach. They did however suddenly lose visual contact with the plane, indicating a sudden patch of thick fog.
????????????????????????????(???????FNN?) - Yahoo!????

[JammedStab]

To be honest with you, that Asiana aircraft doesn't look nearly as damaged as the AC aircraft.

[mark one eyeball]

The weather around japan and Korea last day has been unstable
Much rain, low cloud and windy
There are some carriers out here in east asia I dont feel comfortable flying with
i.e. KAL and Asiana to name a few
I saw a survey in Australia 2 years ago it asked...what is best low fare with a low cost carrier or pay more for a reputable airline that will get you there safely
Most of em went for the low fare option

With the Korean airline set up you pay higher and no feel safe option

[Can737]

Stone_cold,

I don't think "the superior pilot" is part of the flying culture at AC.
I was more commenting on the lack of ability in handling properly an aircraft, which I believe is not true.

I just saw the METAR, at first I thought it had happened on an other CAVOK day, strange coincidences the two accidents are with the same type of aircraft.

[Stone_cold]

Fair enough CAN , and although it may not have seemed so , generally I do agree that there is a different culture surrounding the development of and maintaining proficiency in manual flying skills between NA and Asia . I have flown in both areas and manual flying is certainly discouraged if not banned in the latter . I just object to jumping the gun regarding incidents , even if we suspect what is behind it .

I would not be quick to put my head on a block for the A/C guys , until the fat lady sings , we just don't know . The Asiana incident is even more recent and of course , would not stick up in their defense at this point , but it's a little early to compare or criticize . Waiting on the fat lady's report !

[Can737]

Stone_cold,

Wise words and I will wait for the final report as well.

[Lonewolf_50]

It is a worldwide problem that pilots are being deskilled. IATA keep
looking at fatality rates but should start quoting hull loss rates as not every accident results in fatalities.

Trend analysis on root cause, with fatalities and without, might provide some fodder for training improvements.

The 64 dollar question is: will management invest in the training?

[Indarra]

NHK television news this evening said both cockpit crew were Korean nationals, 8,200 and 1,500 hours. Five minutes before touchdown visibility was good but rapidly deteriorated after that with heavy patches of fog, only 300 or 500 meters visibility in places.

[Centaurus]

There is also a subconscious effort to maintain visual contact even if it means ducking under.

Back in the Fifties I think, the United States Air Force Instrument Flying School did some research on pilot actions during low visibility approach and landings. I think a Sabre Liner was used in the experiments.

Many approaches were flown and recorded. There were a couple of observations recorded that have stood the test of time. One of them included the case where the runway is visually acquired at 500 feet on the ILS when suddenly visual contact is lost due passing low cloud. The tendency is for pilots to keep looking at the same spot on the windscreen where they last spotted the runway.

When the runway re-appeared out of the low cloud layer it was nowhere near in the same angle and same place as the pilots were looking. Of course a go-around should be made but that wasn't the point of the research. The research showed how an unwary pilot or crew could be suckered into continuing the approach in the hope of spotting the runway but be unaware until too late that the outside view through the windscreen had changed a lot and it was all too easy to be drawn into trying to now land visually in the very short time left.

Following on that theme, water on the windscreen as in light or heavy rain attenuation is a well known cause of optical illusions especially if there is no electronic or VASIS/PAPI glide slope information.

Lastly, another interesting discovery made during these trials carried out over sixty years ago, was the strong compulsion for the PNF to look up near the MDA to try and acquire the runway visually when he was supposed to remain heads down. As soon as he went heads up, his monitoring of airspeed, altitude and rate of descent literally went out of the window and undetected excess rates of descent that could occur as the PF himself was heads up looking for the runway, was missed.

The reason why the PNF allowed himself to start to look outside nearing the MDA or DA when he should have disciplined himself to stay heads down monitoring at this critical time, was possibly a very understandable survival mode as terrain got closer. Once both pilots were heads up trying to acquire the approach lights or runway environment in heavy rain or reduced visibility, both were wide open to optical illusions.

Research proved that this powerful human instinct for survival by looking outside at a critical point during short final, (when heads down was vital) could paradoxically lead to the greater chances missing serious changes of flight path deviation both laterally and vertically as well as speed excursion.

On a personal note I found these problems difficult to overcome when landing at night especially in rain and low cloud at Pacific atoll runways that were not only black hole approaches but no visual or electronic glide slope guidance was available.
One thing I occasionally discovered during final approach was besides rain attenuation through the windscreen causing a false horizon, the same rain attenuation seemed to cause the runways to move from side to side causing the pilot to "chase" the runway as if the problem was varying crosswind even on a calm wind. This was because dependant on windscreen design, the water ran sideways over the windscreen as well as vertically as one would expect

One solution to the danger of being sucked in by optical illusions on short visual final in heavy rain, is to have the PNF make a specific call-out at 200 ft of height, airspeed variation from planned approach speed and sink rate. Example being "200 feet, Bug plus ten, Sink 900". This one call at exactly 200 ft was selected so that there was enough height to execute a low altitude go around allowing for engine response time - even if the rate of descent was relatively excessive. It also ensured the PM was forced to go heads down even if he was being tempted to look up instead of forcing himself to stay heads down.

If no call of height/speed and sink rate was forthcoming at exactly 200 ft, then either the PNF was too lazy to call, or was actually heads up (survival mode) when he should be heads down, or had forgotten. Either way, it meant he could not be trusted and the PF would need to consider this fact in future approaches.

Of course the captain could be the PNF, but the same principle applies since as captain he would be in survival mode as he wears the responsibility for the safe conduct of the flight.

My apologies for the thread drift and rant but some of us find corporate history useful to remember.

[320busdriver]

Thanks Centaurus very very interesting info. I`m afraid this is something human beings just can`t do after thousands of years of evolution no amount of training or shouting for that matter can keep you looking out for terra firma. I have a good yellow streak running down my back and proud of it, at minima if I don`t see anything its "go around flaps" and my 330 does not disappoint - that's my survival instinct