Melbourne Airport: 737 cargo hold fire poss due to Lithium-ion battery

[givemewings]

When I worked on ground we were told to specifically ask about certain items, including but not limited to "aerosols, Zippo lighters and batteries"

I've noticed that the 'two questions' seem to have disappeared from the check-in routine. Not sure if this is because I'm usually on staff tickets (bit worrying, some are dumb as doornails and wouldn't have a clue/care about Li-Io batteries) or because there's no longer a requirement to verbalise the questions due to online/kiosk check-in and/or signage at the airport?

[greencoconut]

Undeclared drone batteries sparked plane fire at Melbourne airport: report - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

[Oakape]

"The passenger who had checked in the case was located and was asked whether any batteries were in it, to which the passenger responded there were none,"

"The ARFF and Australian Federal Police inspected all four of the bags checked in by the passenger and found 19 batteries intact and [an] additional 6-8 batteries that had been destroyed by fire."

And there is perhaps the biggest problem! Some people have no concept of the danger & will always do what they want to do, even if they are aware that it is not allowed. I don't know if they think they know better than the experts, or if they just feel it is worth the risk of putting everyone's life in jeopardy in order to achieve their objective. It is the same with mobile phones. People don't power them off (I know the rules have recently changed in some countries) & I've even had a lady sitting beside me making calls while in the air. Denied it of course when the flight attendant questioned her.

I don't know how you can effectively combat this mentality.

[Ian W]

Originally Posted by Oakape

And there is perhaps the biggest problem! Some people have no concept of the danger & will always do what they want to do, even if they are aware that it is not allowed. I don't know if they think they know better than the experts, or if they just feel it is worth the risk of putting everyone's life in jeopardy in order to achieve their objective. It is the same with mobile phones. People don't power them off (I know the rules have recently changed in some countries) & I've even had a lady sitting beside me making calls while in the air. Denied it of course when the flight attendant questioned her.

I don't know how you can effectively combat this mentality.

The anecdotes you gave are typical. But for a moment look at it from the pax point of view. Taxi out at US hub, no problem using tablets, phones (in airplane mode)... land on in Europe and they must be off and stowed. Why? Well its the regulators _not_ the safety aspects.

A related issue - I was sent a spare rechargeable Lithium Ion battery for a headset. The battery was about the size of the top joint of my little finger. It came in a box 9 inches deep and around 3 feet square filled with clever packaging and plastered with all the regulatory warnings.

This type of over reaction and illogical regulatory disagreements bring the entire safety culture into disrepute. The pax think its just officialdom being awkward because they like being awkward and imposing 'meaningless rules'. In many the pax are right there are lots of 'rules' that are pure CYA and have no technical merit So just like crying wolf too many times, these regulations are just not believed and that includes the real threats - how does an average SLF know the difference between rules there for no real reason (often the majority) and a rule that is really required?

Regulators need to get their act together and have verified quantified risks to justify each 'safety' rule and have them consistent worldwide.

[Oakape]

All of that is completely true & it needs to be addressed. The differences between the regulators range from stupid to confusing & tend to be based more on 'butt covering' than concrete evidence.

However, SLF & those sending freight are generally not qualified to make a decision as to what is safe & what is not. Nor are they qualified to analyse the various regs & decide which are sensible & which aren't. That being the case, they should be following ALL the rules & going through appropriate channels if they feel something needs to be changed.

[nicolai]

Originally Posted by Oakape

I don't know how you can effectively combat this mentality.

Take them over to the RFF training facility and put them in the burning aircraft simulator, then turn the flames on for a few seconds

More realistically, more awareness of the dangers might help, but could also spread a general perception of "aviation is unsafe", which isn't going to help anyone in aviation keep their jobs. Difficult problem.

[brak]

I think in this particular case the culprit, as a "licensed drone operator" who was transporting about 20 large-capacity (drone) lithium-ion batteries, should have been (and likely was) quite aware of all related dangers. This was not an innocent mistake by an ill-informed person, but rather a "willful ignorance" (for the lack of better term).
It's a mix of "I know better" and "it will never happen to me", along with being a self-centered jerk who does not care for lives of others. Can't combat that except with vigilance and excessive punishment. Since this person lied about content of his luggage - I hope there is a criminal case against him.

[daikilo]

I am told that the problem is more serious.

For many a month I would close my PC, put it in the bag provided, and it theoretically would go into controlled shut-down. Some of us noticed that it didn't always. This is a software glitch.

Remaining under power, and generating heat, it seems that the bags may catch fire before the PC, but once they have, you have a battery runaway. Unlikely to be an issue on a short-range flight, but not so clear for a long-range.

[toaddy]

I used to be a rep for a lipo brand, commonly used in electric RC helicopters and drones. Those battery cells are wrapped in a membrane that's very easy to puncture if poked or slid into another object. Think heavy duty potato chip bag material. I've seen many go up in flames when a helicopter crashes or some component shifts and vibrates a hole in a battery cell. Almost always when a cell erupts, each neighboring cell will sequentially erupt as well. Most of the 5 and 6 cell lipos would hiss smoke and spew sparks and flames for at least a minute or so before burning out.

I understand the lithium ion round cells are physically protected better and less subject to unintentional damage but I never worked with them.

I would feel comfortable flying with scattered lipos in devices on airplanes, or even in cargo, but a container with dozens or hundreds of the fragile cells in one container does make me uneasy. I carry them in my car trunk and am constantly checking that no tools, volt meter probes, or any hard object can slide or shift into a cell. We really are at the mercy of the person doing the packaging. One slip up and a large number of cells could be affected.

Interestingly the bluefin sonar thing that searched for mh370 is powered with lipos. From what I read the high pressure from extreme depth is not a problem for lipo cells.

[airman1900]

framer

There is a FAA pdf at:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...dent_chart.pdf

BATTERIES & BATTERY - POWERED DEVICES
Aviation Cargo and Passenger Baggage Incidents Involving
Smoke, Fire, Extreme Heat or Explosion

As of May 19, 2014, 144 air incidents involving batteries carried as cargo or baggage that have been recorded since March 20, 1991

[porch monkey]

He should have known better. He is now an ex employee, (Tech Crew!), of another airline.

[mickjoebill]

The robust design of professional camera batteries are a major feature but drone batteries are sold on their power to weight ratio.
The lighter the better.
Then they are customised by the operator.
Such customisation is not regulated.

Amazing that security checks ensure liquid bombs don't make it on board when home modified batteries dont warrant an investigation...

[Una Due Tfc]

It's unlikely the 737 in question had fire suppression in the hold. If these things had gone off in cruise........

[porch monkey]

I think you'll find the opposite is true UDT.

[Dufo]

Just thinking..

These days it takes only a few RC li-po batteries with time-triggered piercing device (which will pass any security screening) to bring an aeroplane down.
Who needs explosives..

And no, I don't argue when they take my mini cocacola bottle at security

Wake up legislators, please.

[FlightDetent]

Originally Posted by Ian W

This type of over reaction and illogical regulatory disagreements bring the entire safety culture into disrepute. The pax think its just officialdom being awkward because they like being awkward and imposing 'meaningless rules'. In many the pax are right there are lots of 'rules' that are pure CYA and have no technical merit So just like crying wolf too many times, these regulations are just not believed and that includes the real threats ...

Regulators need to get their act together and have verified quantified risks to justify each 'safety' rule and have them consistent worldwide.

If only I could have this engraved in stone. To slap some sense into quite a few boxed minds.

[crippen]

THAI bans large power banks Published: 13 Sep 2014 at 13.21 | Viewed: 4,327 | Comments: 2Online news: AviationWriter: Online Reporters Thai Airways International (THAI) has banned power banks for mobile...

Please credit and share this article with others using this link:THAI bans large power banks | Bangkok Post: business.

A passenger can bring with him on board power banks, or spare batteries with rechargers, with capacities of less than 20,000 milliamp-hours (mAh) or 100 watt-hours (Wh).
For power banks with capacities of 20,000-32,000 mAh (100-160 Wh), he can take up to two packs in a carry-on bag. A power bank of more than 32,000 mAh is prohibited even in carry-on baggage

[Miles]

Interesting porch,

I have heard it alleged on another forum dedicated to Uav folks that the person in question was a fellow professional pilot (a Boeing FO no less, with several thousand hours).
Regardless, as a certified Uav operator, if these facts are true (knowingly declaring no lipo in checked baggage) he deserves to be stripped of his certificate.
We are in the early days of commercial uav operations and CASA Have been very gracious in their positive encouragement. For the sake off all Uav operators and more importantly the general public, all Uav operations should conducted diligently and within the regulations.

[Ian W]

Originally Posted by Miles

We are in the early days of commercial uav operations and CASA Have been very gracious in their positive encouragement. For the sake off all Uav operators and more importantly the general public, all Uav operations should conducted diligently and within the regulations.

Having worked with some standards bodies, this is the major fear of professional UAS operators that someone will cause a high profile incident and all the work of trying to get commercial operations approved will be thrown away. For example, it only takes a paparazzi with a qadrotor to have a mid-air with a manned aircraft say a helicopter carrying a VIP/socialite, and the door will be firmly shut to all but 'state owned' aircraft.

[Ex Cargo Clown]

I'm pretty sure Li-ion batteries were class 9, and subject to limited quantities either that or CAO. CASA should throw the book at this moron.